Goatchoge wrote:
I was shocked to see no one had mentioned this yet.
WE are talking about Kipchoge on the Marathon level......not his track years. Stick to the subject.
This is about Kipchoge and the marathon WR.
Goatchoge wrote:
I was shocked to see no one had mentioned this yet.
WE are talking about Kipchoge on the Marathon level......not his track years. Stick to the subject.
This is about Kipchoge and the marathon WR.
5/10, just because this has made it to 3 pages.
Raddison wrote:
Scorpion Runner's post has started one thought in my mind. Is there any other runner, at any distance, who has so dominated their event and consistently run fast times but never held the world record? When I think of other dominant runners, Usain Bolt, Edwin Moses, Coe, Ovett, Gebrselassie, Bekele, they have all broken records several times. The only individual who could be considered to have a similar characteristic to Kipchoge is Mo Farar but he would never be considered fast enough to challenge a world record.
Caster Semenya
Scorpion_runner wrote:
That question is a very outlandish question, considering the greatness he has already achieved - I know. I know. I should have my head examined for even thinking such a thing.
However, read the question again, and then take a deep, deep look at his races.
Kipchoge has lost only one marathon race, and has never DNF'd. That alone to most people makes him the GOAT, but when you look at his times, I see a huge red flag.
Kipchoge has run 2:03 twice, with the majority of his marathon races being completed in 2:04 - He has run 2:04 five times. The 2:05s are not worth considering, because those times were acquired during the beginning stages of his marathon career.
The 2:04s ( as well as he 2:03 finishes) that he ran were races that were structured to go after the WR. The top pacers in the world were brought in for those races, to push Kipchoge (and other WR seekers) to break the WR. However, breaking the WR never came to fruition. And even though Kipchoge( and other runners) was on blazing WR pace, he appeared to back off in the last 4-6 miles of those races, to focus on getting the win - And that is the Red Flag that I aforementioned.
The Red Flag is that Kipchoge is unwilling to risk it all to break the WR. He plays it safe, so that his race is not compromised, where he gets beaten or falls prey to DNFing. He basically stops attacking to make sure that he gets the win. In Futbol, they call that anti-futbol ( Hi, France!), where a team goes up by one goal, but then stops attacking, because the team does not want to risk losing the game. They, basically, play it safe, or should I say they play scared.
Does Kipchoge run scared in the last 10k of his races? Does he fear the wheels will fall of if he pushes hard for the WR?
Let's take Wilson Kipsang's race against Bekele in the Berlin Marathon of 2016. Kipsang made a fast move within the last 6 mile of that race. He had to. Bekele is a massive kicker, and Wilson is a shuffler. So letting Bekele hang around until the last couple of miles of a marathon race would spell disaster for Kipsang each and every time, so that move was a no brainer. However, Kipsang went out way too fast, and his wheels slightly feel off, allowing Bekele to catch up. Bekele went on to win the race In 2:03:03 , the second fastest marathon time in history. Kipsang came in at 2:03:13, just 10 seconds off of Bekele. My theory is that Kipsang not only went after the win, but he also gunned for the WR. Had he put a cap on his speed, or even stayed back just a little, more than likely he would have won that race - But the point is , he went for it. Even though the win appeared to be in the bag, he wanted the WR , too. He took a shot. And considering he was the WR holder at one point, that was a ballsy move.
Look at Mary Keitany and the career of Haile G, to them, every race is/was a WR attempt. They are/were willing to red line to get the WR. We have seen MK blow up several times chasing the WR, and Haile G DNF'd four times in his marathon career going after the WR. Playing it safe was/is not a part of their mental make-up.
We got on Mo Farah for not really bleeding. He had tons of wins under his belt, but was complacent with just that. He made no WR attempts. And even though there is always talk about pacers going out at WR pace in Berlin and in London, we have yet to see Kipchoge truly chase the WR. So why should he get a pass?
Kipchoge is a great guy, humanitarian, and elder and leader in his village. He constantly talks about running a beautiful race, or that he is going to run a beautiful race. But his beautiful race does not = WR .
Is Kipchoge SCARED to take a shot, and if he is scared to take a shot, does that hurt his marathon legacy?
I would have to say YES.
Here, ladies and gentlemen, is today's recipient of the LetsRun Special Kind of Stupid award for today!
Scorpion King could not attend today's ceremony but the award will be set aside so he or she can pick the award up at their convenience.
Yeah, he didn't break a doped-up WR, big deal.
osm wrote:
Raddison wrote:
Scorpion Runner's post has started one thought in my mind. Is there any other runner, at any distance, who has so dominated their event and consistently run fast times but never held the world record? When I think of other dominant runners, Usain Bolt, Edwin Moses, Coe, Ovett, Gebrselassie, Bekele, they have all broken records several times. The only individual who could be considered to have a similar characteristic to Kipchoge is Mo Farar but he would never be considered fast enough to challenge a world record.
Caster Semenya
Good suggestion. And Survey Says' Toshihiko Seko would also be a member of that club.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
That question is a very outlandish question, considering the greatness he has already achieved - I know. I know. I should have my head examined for even thinking such a thing.
However, read the question again, and then take a deep, deep look at his races.
Kipchoge has lost only one marathon race, and has never DNF'd. That alone to most people makes him the GOAT, but when you look at his times, I see a huge red flag.
Kipchoge has run 2:03 twice, with the majority of his marathon races being completed in 2:04 - He has run 2:04 five times. The 2:05s are not worth considering, because those times were acquired during the beginning stages of his marathon career.
The 2:04s ( as well as he 2:03 finishes) that he ran were races that were structured to go after the WR. The top pacers in the world were brought in for those races, to push Kipchoge (and other WR seekers) to break the WR. However, breaking the WR never came to fruition. And even though Kipchoge( and other runners) was on blazing WR pace, he appeared to back off in the last 4-6 miles of those races, to focus on getting the win - And that is the Red Flag that I aforementioned.
The Red Flag is that Kipchoge is unwilling to risk it all to break the WR. He plays it safe, so that his race is not compromised, where he gets beaten or falls prey to DNFing. He basically stops attacking to make sure that he gets the win. In Futbol, they call that anti-futbol ( Hi, France!), where a team goes up by one goal, but then stops attacking, because the team does not want to risk losing the game. They, basically, play it safe, or should I say they play scared.
Does Kipchoge run scared in the last 10k of his races? Does he fear the wheels will fall of if he pushes hard for the WR?
Let's take Wilson Kipsang's race against Bekele in the Berlin Marathon of 2016. Kipsang made a fast move within the last 6 mile of that race. He had to. Bekele is a massive kicker, and Wilson is a shuffler. So letting Bekele hang around until the last couple of miles of a marathon race would spell disaster for Kipsang each and every time, so that move was a no brainer. However, Kipsang went out way too fast, and his wheels slightly feel off, allowing Bekele to catch up. Bekele went on to win the race In 2:03:03 , the second fastest marathon time in history. Kipsang came in at 2:03:13, just 10 seconds off of Bekele. My theory is that Kipsang not only went after the win, but he also gunned for the WR. Had he put a cap on his speed, or even stayed back just a little, more than likely he would have won that race - But the point is , he went for it. Even though the win appeared to be in the bag, he wanted the WR , too. He took a shot. And considering he was the WR holder at one point, that was a ballsy move.
Look at Mary Keitany and the career of Haile G, to them, every race is/was a WR attempt. They are/were willing to red line to get the WR. We have seen MK blow up several times chasing the WR, and Haile G DNF'd four times in his marathon career going after the WR. Playing it safe was/is not a part of their mental make-up.
We got on Mo Farah for not really bleeding. He had tons of wins under his belt, but was complacent with just that. He made no WR attempts. And even though there is always talk about pacers going out at WR pace in Berlin and in London, we have yet to see Kipchoge truly chase the WR. So why should he get a pass?
Kipchoge is a great guy, humanitarian, and elder and leader in his village. He constantly talks about running a beautiful race, or that he is going to run a beautiful race. But his beautiful race does not = WR .
Is Kipchoge SCARED to take a shot, and if he is scared to take a shot, does that hurt his marathon legacy?
I would have to say YES.
Scorpion Runner,
Has your account been hacked?
Methinksyes!
Let it Rupp wrote:
Yeah, he didn't break a doped-up WR, big deal.
It is a big deal, especially when everyone is going for it, and then you throw in the breaking 2 circus. Let's
not pretend that it is not a big deal.
Again, Kipchoge is great, but I think the only chink in his armor is playing it safe.
And if he does not get the WR, it will be a slight knock against his legacy.
He has no other weaknesses, but Adola proved that there is a line that Kipchoge isn't willing to cross.
I mean he is even talking down upcoming Berlin, where he says that he wants to PR, as oppose to
to breaking the WR. That is very strange to me. Kipsang is going in wanting to break the WR, a mindset
similar to Keitany's.
lucky ducky wrote:
Let's look at the two people who have run faster than him:
Kimetto, Berlin 2014, 2:02:57
Bekele, Berlin 2016, 2:03:03
What was the second place time in both of those races? 2:03:13.
What was the second place time in London 2016 when Kipchoge ran 2:03:05? 2:03:51
Part of the reason Kipchoge does not have the WR is that he has not had the luxury of having someone being able to hang with him at a pace within a few seconds of the WR.
Kipchoge overrated? The OP is ridiculous! Apart from his debut, Kipchoge has lined up against the very best in each of his subsequent races.. That included racing his nemesis Bekele as well as Kipsang. And guess what, he won all of them! When he ran 2:03:05 in London, he wasn't aware he was close to the world record. He only realized it less than a quarter mile from the finish line. It appears their goal (working together with Stanley Biwott) was to destroy Kenenisa Bekele which they did successfully. At the end, he wasn't even as tired.
2018 Berlin will answer the OP's question. I am told Kipchoge is RED HOT. He realizes father-time is inevitable at some point and he wants to go for the only thing missing in his collection. - The WR.. Kipsang who is also in top shape, capable of the WR, will push Kipchoge to crush that record.
He has the world's best time at 2:00:25
He almost set 2 official WR, once running 2:04:00 with one shoe, and then a tactical 2:03:05. He won Olympic Gold, decimating a field while running at about 80% effort.
He is the Master. Only one blemish on his resume, 2013 Berlin in 2:04:05, when Kipsang set the WR.
Completely underrated.
mhhm wrote:
It depends on what you mean by overrated.
Is Kipchoge the best and most feared marathoner of all time?
Yes. When he's in the race of the year, he's odds-on to win - a rare scenario in the marathon.
Does missing the WR in several attempts make him a lesser runner? Maybe by 1%.
Right, and this is why I say a TAD BIT overrated, just a little.
[quote]jh``` wrote:
He has the world's best time at 2:00:25
This is incorrect. The world's best time is 2:02 - Dennis Kimetto.
That circus race is not listed in IAAF's database and it is not in the record books, because it was not a race.
Hey, Scorpion Runner - 2:00:25 happened.
All of us guys that were there and had friend/teammates pace him respect the time as legit. Ask Lagat, Derrick, etc.
It's legit.
World's Best, just like a Boston Marathon performance.
jkjljkl wrote:
Hey, Scorpion Runner - 2:00:25 happened.
All of us guys that were there and had friend/teammates pace him respect the time as legit. Ask Lagat, Derrick, etc.
It's legit.
World's Best, just like a Boston Marathon performance.
Yeah, it's legit alright
- Huge pacer and pacer car wall to prevent wind resistance
- cyclists bringing him hydration so that he didn't have to stop to get fuel
- cheater shoes with mini-trampolines in them to keep his legs from fatiguing.
There is nothing legit about that race....nothing. Not a got damn thing.
Raddison wrote:
Scorpion Runner's post has started one thought in my mind. Is there any other runner, at any distance, who has so dominated their event and consistently run fast times but never held the world record? When I think of other dominant runners, Usain Bolt, Edwin Moses, Coe, Ovett, Gebrselassie, Bekele, they have all broken records several times. The only individual who could be considered to have a similar characteristic to Kipchoge is Mo Farar but he would never be considered fast enough to challenge a world record.
Not running, but Carl Lewis in the long jump.
He runs fast times every race (unlike some we know). If he doesn’t run a WR it’s because that in the conditions given he can’t. Hopefully this Berlin we’ll have regular conditions and a WR.
If he runs in London 1:01 for the half, and then slows down it’s because running WR in these conditions is impossible for him. Yet he finishes in 2:04:17. A very fast time even to good conditions. He is not overrated (unlike some we know)
Wasd wrote:
Raddison wrote:
Scorpion Runner's post has started one thought in my mind. Is there any other runner, at any distance, who has so dominated their event and consistently run fast times but never held the world record? When I think of other dominant runners, Usain Bolt, Edwin Moses, Coe, Ovett, Gebrselassie, Bekele, they have all broken records several times. The only individual who could be considered to have a similar characteristic to Kipchoge is Mo Farar but he would never be considered fast enough to challenge a world record.
Not running, but Carl Lewis in the long jump.
YES! I knew there was one. The undisputed GOAT without ever setting the world record. It's a rare club, but not really a bad one to be in.
I think you guys are slightly missing Scorpion_runner's point--I don't think he's saying that Kipchoge isn't the marathon GOAT. It's hard to argue against that, WR or no WR.
But we REALLY like the guy. I mean, he's incredible. And I think Scorpion_runner is saying that Kipchoge is slightly below what we think.
For instance, consider this:
1500 GOAT: El Guerrouj
3000 GOAT: Komen
5000 GOAT: Bekele (or Gebrselassie)
10000 GOAT: Bekele (or Geb)
HM GOAT: Tadese (or Kamworor)
Marathon GOAT: Kipchoge
I think most people would say that Tadese is the weakest GOAT on this list. So scratch the half marathon. Who's next? I would say Komen, but perhaps Scorpion_runner would say it's Kipchoge.
Then I think it's reasonable to call him overrated if he's "worse" than the 1500, 3000, 5000, and 10000 GOATs. Not because that's bad, but because we treat him like a god.
Scorpion_runner wrote:
But his beautiful race does not = WR .
Is Kipchoge SCARED to take a shot, and if he is scared to take a shot, does that hurt his marathon legacy?
I would have to say YES.
You don't wake up some day and run a marathon WR... You talk about 2:05 like steady running, it's bloody fast.
He came close to WR but every try has very hard consequences on his body so he must be cautious to not burnout himself like Kimetto. If the perfect day will come he will get the WR, otherwise someone else will carry the torch. I believe he has 2-3 more season to go after it, no more. Still he's the GOAT of marathon for his impressive performance streak and the exact opposite of scared.
Your click bait trolling plan worked again.