All-Time Greatest British Distance Runners

wwlk wrote:

OP has Ian Stewart 7th.

Listen, the logic in this post is Olympic/World success.. it's the same argument here in America why many consider Michael Jordan greater than Lebron James - because he has 6 titles/rings.

Mo Farah has 4 Olympic Gold Medals. Seb Coe had the same opportunity and only walked away with 2 Olympic Gold Medals. Plain and Simple.

I'd take Farah as well, as Coe lost way too much in his prime, although he was a clutch championship racer. Simply having the debate of who is greater Coe or Ovett which everyone has, right away shows Coe was not dominant and didn't even retire with the best PB over 1500/Mile.

slowcoach wrote:

no Ian Stewart? commonwealth and euro golds (at 21 and 20 years old - beating Keino in the commonwealth) and olympic bronze at 23. Also won world cross.

.

No, Farah competed in 3 Olympics and won nothing in his first.

Farah ran 3 races to win 2 medals in 2012 and 2016.

Coe ran 6 races to win 2 medals in 80 and 7 races to win 2 medals in 84.

There is a reason why only Snell has done the 800/1500 double in Olympic era, and why several have done the 5 & 10 k double; the latter is easier.

Coe ran a lot more races than Farah, who rarely ran on the circuit, preferring to focus on championships.

Coe lost 2 track races in 4 years between the Europeans in 78 and those in 82. That was probably out of 60 races. Farah lost many races before 2010.

In your comparison with Ovett, you are factually inaccurate. Coe retired with better pbs over both 1500 and 1 mile!

The fact Coe achieved all he did in an era with so many other all time greats only adds to the argument that his successes were more impressive than Farah, who only started winning when the likes of Bekele was out/ injured, leaving behind a relative vacuum in talent in the 5 and 10 k events.

Well argued. I'd happily settle for Foster ahead of Moorcroft or Bedford in that case. Maybe I'm just sick of hearing him commentate. In any case, I still think your top 8 should be fairly straightforward.

Mo

Coe

Ovett

Cram

Jones

Foster

Moorcroft

Bedford

Probably McLeod (almost certainly the true winner of Olympic gold in '84 10000m) and Stewart in the last two spots? I think Pirie and Bannister are the other two arguments you can have but Pirie didn't do enough considering a weaker era and Bannister, well, totally different argument in its own right. Bannister is either off the list or top 3 for me.

One of the incredible things is realising that Spedding and Foster were both part of the same small regional club at the time (along with Barry Smith and Kevin Forster). Mike McLeod was running for a club based just a few miles away. An amazing concentration of distance athletes from a fairly grim and otherwise not terribly notable part of the world.

Pirie should be in the top ten. Olympic silver medal, world records. One of the few athletes to have beaten Zatopek and Kuts and the famous Hungarian trio.

And, as I posted earlier, Kuts was definitely dodgy, and if he is taken out of the equation, Pirie would, probably have won the 5000m/10000m double in Melbourne.

1. Coe

2. Mo

3. Ovett

4. Cram

5. Jones

6. Foster

7. Elliott

8. Hill

9. Peters

10. Bannister

i thought Kevin Forster ran for Sunderland? could be wrong as there were so many great runners at that time.

no idea what it is like now but there were those pockets of great runners in a few places - don't forget Cram and David Sharpe (euro silver 800m in 1990) were also in the NE. Tony Morrell was in Middlesboro.

i think i would be resting up for club fast run night in Gateshead, Tipton or Bingley in the 80s

great running memories from living in the UK. Fortunate to see Coe race the Yorkshire champs three times. Saw Elliott race lots (and "raced" him a few times) , Cram, Buckner, and Hutchings and other international runners a few times. Not a Coe fan at the time........but even compared to the other world class guys he was different. The balance and controlled power when he sprinted could make a crowd of running fans gasp.

HRH wrote:

I’m baffled

I’ve no doubt this is a common occurrence for you.

Here's a name no-one ever seems to mention when British distance running greats are discussed. An Olympic silver medalist only beaten for gold by a legend, a world record holder in an Olympic event and a 3 times English National XC champion. That was the race they all wanted to win and has lost a lot of its glamour in recent times. Oh and add to that he was world XC champion - Basil Heatley

Deanouk wrote: In terms of British athletes, I would put Coe, Thompson, Ovett and Edwards all above Farah; they had Olympic golds and world records. Thus putting Coe above Farah is not a bias, it is based on measurable, concrete analysis.

ALL: This time, deano is right.

Bannister should be somewhere on this list.

HRE wrote:

HRE wrote:

Ron Hill has to be here. So does Gordon Pirie, Bannister, and Bedford.

And Alf Shrubb.

And Alf Tupper, tough of the track and hard as nails.

A working class hero.

Just taking a cursory look at some of Mo's memorable victories, and the standard of opposition clearly doesn't compare to what Coe had to face.

For example, the 5000m in London 2012, the top 5 apart from Mo and 38 year old Bernard Lagat were all dubious Kenyan/Ethiopian age cheats (at least one of them confirmed as such) who had one or two decent seasons. They had fast times in 2011 or 2012 but I would assume were likely doping and having to cut back before the Olympics so not at their best on the big day. Mo won in 13:41. People keep asking why the Africans always allowed Mo a slow race, but maybe it was partly due to not being on the sauce to survive the testing (which was getting a bit better at least for the major championships by then).

This is the guy who got the bronze behind Mo in the 2012 5000m - Thomas Longosiwa.

Longosiwa is a heck of a lot better than Jose Manuel Abascal.

+1

This neatly sidesteps the pointless medals/records arguments. Charisma is what counts (see also Woods, Tiger). Of course global performances factor in (so in the US, Pre is easily shot down) but there's a whole nother level beyond just winning or fast times. Looked at this way, your list here is a pretty good summation of that era. I would even say Cram was a me-too of Coe/Ovett.

Problem with this thesis is that your birthday counts. It was easy to influence lot of people at the beginning of the boom era . 1972 in the US. 1981 for the UK. Once people were'inspired' all else is just more of the same.

So in the UK, the only finalists I would say are Coe and Ovett, Foster Bannister, Mo and Bedford. Extra points for Bannister and Mo as they were not from the boom era. Sorry Shrubbery, Peters etc. You were born at the wrong time. An honorable mention might be made for Sydney Wooderson. I met a lot of ordinary non-runners from my parents time who knew who he was.

Has anybody mentioned Cordner Nelson's definition of true greatness.

1) Sets world record(s)

2) Wins the big title(s) ( Now, Olympics or/and World)

3) Has an aura of invincibility about them( when at their peak).

Who in the list can match that criteria?

george oscar bluth wrote:

Longosiwa is a heck of a lot better than Jose Manuel Abascal.

Why? Abascal won more medals. A 3:31.13 1500 in 1986 compares well with a 12:49 5000m 26 years later. Hell, Abascal even ran a 13:12 5000m in 1987 when moving up at the end of his career. When you consider that Longosiwa is a documented age cheat, and thus you'd have to be naieve as hell to believe he wasn't at least microdosing EPO, I'm not sure you can say he is a 'heck of a lot better than Abascal', unless you think Abascal just had the 'wrong physiology'.

Another point about the different eras is that African doping apologists always claim that Kenyans were strong before the 90s, and in particular in the late 60's and early 70s, and didn't arrive overnight (co-incidentally just when EPO came on the scene). Fair enough, there is some validity to that. But then at the same time they dismiss everything that occurred in distance running before 1990 as sub-standard and inferior because Africans weren't dominating then.

Hmmm...

12:49 is MUCH better than 3:31, even a quarter of a century later. Abascal had only run 3:39 or something around that in '84 before the Games. It's also much better than the 3:33 Jurgen Straub ran. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Calling out Longosiwa as a weak medalist was a bad idea for someone arguing for Coe's superiority. Stick the the world record focus.

spade detector wrote:

HRH wrote:

I’m baffled

I’ve no doubt this is a common occurrence for you.

Perhaps you can explain how a Somali is ‘Britain’s greatest runner‘?

HRH wrote:

spade detector wrote:

I’ve no doubt this is a common occurrence for you.

Perhaps you can explain how a Somali is ‘Britain’s greatest runner‘?

Can you explain to me how you can consider Europeans to be Americans?

HRH wrote:

spade detector wrote:

I’ve no doubt this is a common occurrence for you.

Perhaps you can explain how a Somali is ‘Britain’s greatest runner‘?

But he isn't Somalian. You may be, but he is not.