USA Triathlon very recently helped establish triathlon as an NCAA sport (appears to be just women right now?).
USA Triathlon very recently helped establish triathlon as an NCAA sport (appears to be just women right now?).
There have been a few good responses already. To directly answer your question: "Why can't we take a few NCAA all-Americans in cross, who are unlikely to make a national team and train them for the tri?" The answer is that swimming is a very specific skill set that has to be developed at a young age to have a legitimate shot of competing at an elite level in the ITU world. So, unless your hypothetical NCAA all-American was also at a minimum high level club swimmer, high school, or college swimmer, they are not going to be able to develop the swimming skills necessary to compete in the ITU world.
The triathlon you competed in, 750 meter swim, 10 mile bike, and a 5k run, how far behind the top swimmer were you? I started running and doing triathlons as a 27 year old in 2001. When I first started swimming, I swam with a swim club and was relegated to the little kids, 10 year olds that were swimming laps around me! I used to be one of the fastest on the bike in the triathlons I competed in because I was so slow in the water and I would get a psychological boost when I passed people, plus I enjoyed biking so put more time into it. I was also passing tons on the run. The most recent triathlon I did, I was first out of the water in my wave (40 years of age and older) and finished second overall, needless to say I don't pass many people on the bike and run anymore. However, despite 17 years of swimming, I'm about 20 seconds per 100 meters slower than what the ITU guys/gals are swimming! So, your experience of passing a ton on the run is directly related to how slow you were in the swim and on the bike. Sure, a better bike would help, maybe by as much as 2 or 3 minutes, but my guess is you would still be 10 minutes behind the overall winner...
As others have alluded to, you have to get out of the swim in an ITU race with the front of the group because the bike is draft legal. This eliminates most of your hypothetical NCAA all-Americans!
Of course, the common belief here on letsrun is that Triathletes are mediocre in all three events. Probably true in my case, but at the pointy end of ITU this is far from true. I'm looking forward to seeing how this guy does:
http://featured.flosports.tv/austin-hindman-the-triple-threat-from-the-midwest
Just Guessing wrote:
I am nowhere near the level of an ITU athlete, but I've noticed that the level of competition has increased greatly over the past decade. 10 years ago, it was a big deal that the Collegiate National champion broke 2 hours at the Olympic distance. Nowadays, it's the mark of a good, but not exceptional, college triathlete, with the top guys at least 10 minutes faster. It was really cool to watch that progression take place, and I only expect it to continue.
Nope.
2008:
http://www.onlineraceresults.com/race/view_race.php?race_id=7586&num=10&split=TIME&submit_action=Refresh+Leaders#racetop8 men under 2:00:00 in 2008.
2007:
https://www.athlinks.com/event/90625/results/Event/22897/Course/34738/Results24 men under 2:00:00 in 2007.
Seems you are generalizing too much. I could go on with more examples, but it would not matter.
Funny that you do not thing money is the biggest reason and all of the following are "solved" with money
1) Hair issues---this seems like a silly barrier.
2) Free time and not having to work--as you note affluence fixes that
3) Does not pay well---well if I come from a wealthy background then that is less of a concern. But I would say that bigger prize money would attract more people. I see this in cycling where a lot of really good junior cyclists are also smart and have career options that are far easier than bike racing.
4) Cities---I will go along with you here although one could stretch and say that if you have enough money you can work around being in a city or move
5) Money can pay for swim lessons.
Lots of kids are running into the issue of sports costing a lot even sports like soccer where all it normally takes is ball, but the club system and demands from coaches to play year round and travel have priced people out.
Benched as much as the throwers? Skeptical.
You just need to be fast enough out of the water to get into the bike pack (talking draft legal). In non-drafting it is not as important. First swimmer out rarely wins a major triathlon.
The US still clings to the original triathlon ideal of no drafting. I am old enough that I was doing tri's in the late 80s and draft legal was just coming into play. Magazine editorials and triathletes I hung with were adamantly against draft legal races (as was I). So one problem US athletes run into is learning to ride in a pack. USA Triathlon at one time encouraged its emerging and national level athletes to race USA Cycling road races (not time trials) to learn how to ride in a pack.
Also, every sport has these sorts of discussions about why we are not more competitive on an international stage. Exposure and money are two pretty big barriers.
Uncle Rico wrote:
USA Triathlon very recently helped establish triathlon as an NCAA sport (appears to be just women right now?).
2014 and for women only (I am thinking as a lure for Title IX issues) so it is still pretty new.
USAT also just established a training group in Tucson. There had been one in Colorado Springs, but it was a cluster f---.
I used to work out with the throwers. I could bench 8 reps at 275. While I couldn't keep up with one or two guys that could knock out 405+, I could keep up with most of them.
D. Empfield wrote:
No one cares about ITU racing. Ironman racing is real triathlon.
The real D Empfield wouldn't say this, knowing ITU guys come up into long distance and crush the guys who came into the sport being weak in 1 of the legs . You again reflect my point, too much focus in long distance course in USA, as the swim is the least time consuming discipline during the race. Toyota - Lifetime used to have a well paying Olympic series, 20k per race , 100k grand prize. It even attracted people from over seas.
How good are these ITU guys? Jan frodono - Olympic gold And Kona winner - would grow up swimming 2km BUTTERFLY as a WARM UP. Many swimmers struggle to do 1 lap
Yeah. My bad. That was too much of an exaggeration. I went through the results more carefully and it seems like the top athletes broke 2 hours every year except for 2009. However, the overall point still stands that collegiate athletes have gotten significantly faster, even over the last decade. For a significantly more scientific approach to it, look at the place that a 98 or 100 USAT score at the Club National Championships get. I'm only going to discuss the men's results, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same story holds true on the women's side as well.
From the first three years with this ranking system (2009-2011), the overall champions were somewhere from 100 to 103, with about 10 people above 100. In 2012, there is this massive spike with 20ish people above 100. Then, in 2013, 13 people break the mark. However, keep in mind that in 2013 they incorporated a draft legal race the day before so many of the top athletes were expected to race twice in the weekend. From there, 100 points stays around 15th or so place until 2016, where it starts dropping down the rankings until 2017, where it puts you around 30th place. This year the swim got cut, so there isn't any good data. I saw this effect firsthand while racing collegiately, so I think this data is probably fairly representative of the increasing competitiveness.
Luv2Run wrote:
The US still clings to the original triathlon ideal of no drafting. I am old enough that I was doing tri's in the late 80s and draft legal was just coming into play. Magazine editorials and triathletes I hung with were adamantly against draft legal races (as was I). So one problem US athletes run into is learning to ride in a pack. USA Triathlon at one time encouraged its emerging and national level athletes to race USA Cycling road races (not time trials) to learn how to ride in a pack.
Also, every sport has these sorts of discussions about why we are not more competitive on an international stage. Exposure and money are two pretty big barriers.
I was in Cleveland for 1996 ITU Worlds. I believe it was the second year of draft legal racing. There were still some people holding up "drafting sucks" signs, etc. Yes, ITU-style racing just hasn't really caught on here. A big part of it is that 90%+ of amateurs couldn't really do it. The swim is too variable for them to have any kind of meaningful bike packs and then many of them don't have much pack riding skills/experience. It's just a different type/style of triathlon. ITU level guys are the most well-rounded triathletes out there, because you can't hide anywhere. You have to be able to swim fast to make a decent pack, you have to be able to stay with the group on the bike, and then you have to run.
I do still hold out some hope for the future, as the Juniors coming through over the last 10-15 years have gotten a decent amount of draft-legal experience.
Honestly the drat legal races are so much more fun. There's actually some strategy involved. They're just as hard (if not harder) as any non-drafting races. In a bike race you often don't have a choice when some one makes a move, you HAVE to cover it. Same thing in the water. You can't afford to be 30 seconds down out of the swim.
And that is pretty damn fast. Webb never made it. Often the lead pack on the bike is 30 and under
In 2009 USA Triathlon launched the Collegiate Recruitment Program (CRP) (
https://www.teamusa.org/usa-triathlon/elite/collegiate-recruitment
), the aim of which is to recruit collegiate runners and swimmers with a background in the other sport into the sport of triathlon post-NCAA to talent ID for our Olympic pipeline. You look at the US women ranked in the world (
https://www.triathlon.org/rankings/itu_world_rankings/female
) at the moment and the top 5 women came through the CRP with 4 running Division I only one of them swimming in college (Spivey). The women have had much success transitioning rather quickly from NCAA runner to elite triathlete, as shown with Gwen Jorgensen's gold in Rio as the pinnacle of that success. On the men's side (
https://www.triathlon.org/rankings/itu_world_rankings/male
) our 3rd-5th ranked males all ran in college (Matt McElroy, Tony Smoragiewicz, Morgan Pearson), with Tony racing triathlon as a Junior before he ran at Michigan. Morgan did his first triathlon a year ago (Age Group Nationals, sprint) where he won and is in his first season of elite racing. Both Matt and Morgan grew up on the coasts in the water and surfing, which has helped their transition to the swim.
With multiple loop challenging courses, the ITU has always tried to make spectating more interesting. The Mixed Relay is an exciting addition to the Olympic program no doubt!
Great reply here! I equate trying to teach an adult to swim is like teaching an adult to downhill ski! A runner who has that swim background from youth to HS but doesn't touch water for 5 years in college will be able to bring the swim back. Just like if my kids who have grown up alpine skiing don't touch snow now until they are on a college spring break ski trip with friends, their ski legs will come back in half a day. This is one of the key talent ID pieces, to find a sub 14' 5k male who has a decent swim background. In my experience, on average female collegiate runners with a swim background spent a longer time than males swimming before transitioning solely to the run.
Thanks Barb! I'm guessing you already knew about this:
Excited to see how he does!
Additionally, Marty Andrie, a multiple time All-American runner and recent graduate of the Colorado School of Mines, is quickly moving his way up the triathlon ranks in his first real season on the circuit.
Barb Lindquist wrote:
Great reply here! I equate trying to teach an adult to swim is like teaching an adult to downhill ski! A runner who has that swim background from youth to HS but doesn't touch water for 5 years in college will be able to bring the swim back. Just like if my kids who have grown up alpine skiing don't touch snow now until they are on a college spring break ski trip with friends, their ski legs will come back in half a day. This is one of the key talent ID pieces, to find a sub 14' 5k male who has a decent swim background. In my experience, on average female collegiate runners with a swim background spent a longer time than males swimming before transitioning solely to the run.
How does one train for triathlons? I got no swimming back ground and as far as biking goes only light bike rides for leisure every once in a blue moon. But I run a lot, about 80 miles a week and some lifting. Any tips?
There are plenty of books that can give you a basic training plan or hire a USAT-certified coach.
I would also recommend getting some private adult swim classes. Your technique in the swim is CRITICAL! You will expend way more energy with bad technique and just wear yourself out. It is also less fun.
San Diego Hobby Jogger wrote:
D. Empfield wrote:
No one cares about ITU racing. Ironman racing is real triathlon.
The real D Empfield wouldn't say this, knowing ITU guys come up into long distance and crush the guys who came into the sport being weak in 1 of the legs . You again reflect my point, too much focus in long distance course in USA, as the swim is the least time consuming discipline during the race. Toyota - Lifetime used to have a well paying Olympic series, 20k per race , 100k grand prize. It even attracted people from over seas.
How good are these ITU guys? Jan frodono - Olympic gold And Kona winner - would grow up swimming 2km BUTTERFLY as a WARM UP. Many swimmers struggle to do 1 lap
And when did Frodeno really become well known, at least in the US? After switching over to Ironman. Whitfield and Carter never did...and no one knows who they are anymore.
Luv2Run wrote:
Sand Dunes wrote:
How does one train for triathlons? I got no swimming back ground and as far as biking goes only light bike rides for leisure every once in a blue moon. But I run a lot, about 80 miles a week and some lifting. Any tips?
There are plenty of books that can give you a basic training plan or hire a USAT-certified coach.
I would also recommend getting some private adult swim classes. Your technique in the swim is CRITICAL! You will expend way more energy with bad technique and just wear yourself out. It is also less fun.
Thank you, I was thinking of joining a adult swim club. I was just wondering the basic formula as far as how much cycling to swimming to running.