No,no,no! You have got it wrong again! :) Just do the 20 x 400 or 13 x 600 or 10 x 800 maxVO2 workout on Tuesday and complement it with the LT -workout of a total 6 -10 miles cruise intervals on thursday. That`s it! And then run the special long run on Saturday with fast finish at LT-pace and REST on Sunday! Super effective! Good luck Sand dunes!
No,no,no! You have got it wrong again! :) Just do the 20 x 400 or 13 x 600 or 10 x 800 maxVO2 workout on Tuesday and complement it with the LT -workout of a total 6 -10 miles cruise intervals on thursday. That`s it! And then run the special long run on Saturday with fast finish at LT-pace and REST on Sunday! Super effective! Good luck Sand dunes!
This is pretty similar to what my team will be doing for the next few weeks actually. We aren't going to do 20x400 (we'll do hill reps that take around 60 seconds instead). We have the cruise interval and long run, though.
No,no,no! You have got it wrong again! :) Just do the 20 x 400 or 13 x 600 or 10 x 800 maxVO2 workout on Tuesday and complement it with the LT -workout of a total 6 -10 miles cruise intervals on thursday. That`s it! And then run the special long run on Saturday with fast finish at LT-pace and REST on Sunday! Super effective! Good luck Sand dunes!
10 x 800m at 5km pace looks like a pretty tough workout. Or do you have to run it a bit slower?
Ha ha, hadn't checked back on this thread, but see that my description of 20 x 400 has been faulted for not following the original intent of Gerschler and Reindell's interval training. Um, that's because 20 x 400 to target VO2 max is not the same as an interval workout targeting the heart's stroke volume.
Gerschler (influenced by Reindell) had athletes run short, intense repetitions over distances of 100-400 meters, however long it took to elevate their heart rate to 180 bpm, then used a longer recovery interval (up to 90 seconds--if it took longer for the athlete's heart rate to drop to 120 bpm, the workout was ended) to stimulate increased pressure within the chambers of the heart--this led to bigger heart chambers, which led to increased stroke volume.
But that's not the point of 20 x 400 as a VO2 max workout, which targets mitochondrial, capillary, and aerobic enzyme adaptation at the muscle fiber level, especially in intermediate fast-twitch fibers. For that workout, it's the time at or near VO2 max (about 90% VO2 max is the cutoff for getting the training effect you're after) that counts. Your fibers also learn to process lactate (a good fuel, but that's for another post) in intermediate fibers that aren't recruited during tempo and distance runs.
I personally schedule both traditional interval training (aimed at stroke volume) and VO2 max work (aimed at aerobic energy production on the cellular level). For traditional interval training, I target a pace equivalent to 1500/3K effort. For VO2 max, I use 5K effort. Yes, both workouts bleed into the effects produced by the other, but I want 100% development for both. After all, it doesn't matter how much blood we pump through our bodies with increased stroke volume unless we can actually process it within our muscle fibers--and that means more supply lines (capillaries) to bring oxygen to muscle fibers and more/bigger mitochondria within the fibers to use that oxygen to create aerobic energy. Interestingly, it also takes shorter, faster intervals (i.e., traditional interval training-type workouts) to really supercharge the mitochondria we develop with the VO2 max training.
As for running economy at 5K pace, that's developed by running at 5K pace--the length of the recovery interval doesn't matter. For that matter, you can develop economy for 5K running at 3K and 10K pace, too. And by doing drills. And hill sprints. And etcetera. Running economy is a complicated beast, not easily caged into the framework of a single workout approach. The beauty of training for our sport lies in the variety of workout tools we have for achieving our goals.
Look, seriously, back to 20 x 400 and the recovery interval: It makes no sense to debate whether short recoveries or long recoveries are best. Both are best! ... Just for different target goals!
No,no,no! You have got it wrong again! :) Just do the 20 x 400 or 13 x 600 or 10 x 800 maxVO2 workout on Tuesday and complement it with the LT -workout of a total 6 -10 miles cruise intervals on thursday. That`s it! And then run the special long run on Saturday with fast finish at LT-pace and REST on Sunday! Super effective! Good luck Sand dunes!
Hello Prince of the kenyan highlands...why change your handle
Ha ha, hadn't checked back on this thread, but see that my description of 20 x 400 has been faulted for not following the original intent of Gerschler and Reindell's interval training. Um, that's because 20 x 400 to target VO2 max is not the same as an interval workout targeting the heart's stroke volume.
Gerschler (influenced by Reindell) had athletes run short, intense repetitions over distances of 100-400 meters, however long it took to elevate their heart rate to 180 bpm, then used a longer recovery interval (up to 90 seconds--if it took longer for the athlete's heart rate to drop to 120 bpm, the workout was ended) to stimulate increased pressure within the chambers of the heart--this led to bigger heart chambers, which led to increased stroke volume.
But that's not the point of 20 x 400 as a VO2 max workout, which targets mitochondrial, capillary, and aerobic enzyme adaptation at the muscle fiber level, especially in intermediate fast-twitch fibers. For that workout, it's the time at or near VO2 max (about 90% VO2 max is the cutoff for getting the training effect you're after) that counts. Your fibers also learn to process lactate (a good fuel, but that's for another post) in intermediate fibers that aren't recruited during tempo and distance runs.
I personally schedule both traditional interval training (aimed at stroke volume) and VO2 max work (aimed at aerobic energy production on the cellular level). For traditional interval training, I target a pace equivalent to 1500/3K effort. For VO2 max, I use 5K effort. Yes, both workouts bleed into the effects produced by the other, but I want 100% development for both. After all, it doesn't matter how much blood we pump through our bodies with increased stroke volume unless we can actually process it within our muscle fibers--and that means more supply lines (capillaries) to bring oxygen to muscle fibers and more/bigger mitochondria within the fibers to use that oxygen to create aerobic energy. Interestingly, it also takes shorter, faster intervals (i.e., traditional interval training-type workouts) to really supercharge the mitochondria we develop with the VO2 max training.
As for running economy at 5K pace, that's developed by running at 5K pace--the length of the recovery interval doesn't matter. For that matter, you can develop economy for 5K running at 3K and 10K pace, too. And by doing drills. And hill sprints. And etcetera. Running economy is a complicated beast, not easily caged into the framework of a single workout approach. The beauty of training for our sport lies in the variety of workout tools we have for achieving our goals.
Look, seriously, back to 20 x 400 and the recovery interval: It makes no sense to debate whether short recoveries or long recoveries are best. Both are best! ... Just for different target goals!
Well Pete! Now there is a new modern version of 20 x 400m that combines the two different purposes you talk about. A new version that is superior to each one of them alone. And this superior version is at 5 k race pace and is highly dependent of the very best rest down to 120 bpm . Intervals right done is at 5k pace , not 1500/ 3000m race pace. When running 1500 / 3000m race pace reps, it is no more a talk about interval reps, then it`s simply repetitions at 1500/ 3000 race pace with more rest needed . More important to stay at the 1500/ 3000m race pace relaxed, to gain the important "Staying power".
No,no,no! You have got it wrong again! :) Just do the 20 x 400 or 13 x 600 or 10 x 800 maxVO2 workout on Tuesday and complement it with the LT -workout of a total 6 -10 miles cruise intervals on thursday. That`s it! And then run the special long run on Saturday with fast finish at LT-pace and REST on Sunday! Super effective! Good luck Sand dunes!
10 x 800m at 5km pace looks like a pretty tough workout. Or do you have to run it a bit slower?
You don`t have to run it slower but you can build up from 5-6 x 800 up to 10 x 800 . And remember the rest down to 120 bpm will be longer compared to when running 20 x 400m. But my runners mostly run 20 x 400m.
This is a staple of my own training progression. But as another poster said, it's important to control both the pace of the 400 and the length of the recovery interval. By running at current 5K pace (not goal pace), you train at an effort level presumably at or above 90% VO2 max, the level you need to hit in order to trigger the benefits targeted by this type of workout. By limiting recovery to 100 meters, you begin your next repetition at close to the same VO2 max level (since you stay at VO2 max for a very short period following each repetition). In this way, the first few reps serve to get you up to VO2 max, then the remainder keep you working at that level. You end up accumulating a lot of work at 90+ percent VO2 max. In fact, you get more work at this level of VO2 max than you would at a similar volume of 5K work split into 800s, 1200s, or 1600s, since those reps require a significantly longer recovery interval, which means you'll spend a significant portion of each rep getting back to the targeted level of VO2 max. Performed correctly, this is a tough workout, but by no means a killer workout.
The problem with this workout is that many runners try to run the 400s at mile or 3K pace (or at a goal 5K pace that's a lot faster than current 5K pace), which is simply too hard to sustain over 20 reps (and doesn't offer a lot more benefit than the work at 5K effort, anyway). The problem is also that many runners/coaches just drop this workout into a training program out of nowhere. Instead, you need to build to this workout, progressively increasing the amount of work at the targeted level of VO2 max from week to week. I personally spend 6-7 weeks building up before I get to 20 x 400.
Also, a longer recovery interval defeats the purpose, as a 400-meter rep after a long recovery will require most of the rep just to get back to the targeted level of VO2 max.
In any case, it's just another workout in what should be a large arsenal of workouts.
You are absolutely correct that the 20 x 400m should be run at present 5 k race pace. But I don`t agree with you when
you talk about how the recovery between the reps should be performed. I understand how you think with the too
short recovery of 100 m to faster build up close to maxVO2 for more of the reps, but the thing is that the heart and the cardiovascular system needs more rest to get optimal effect. What you and so many forget is that the recovery period
between the reps is MORE important than the effort for the heart to grow stronger and more effective. And further this
workout only help to raise or maintain the maxVO2 together with the other contributing factors. The main purpose with the 20 x 400m is to get the body used to the 5 k race pace and that way make the energy process at that pace more economical. Repetition of the workout from week to week makes biomechanics at the pace more effective . In fact the runner don`t need another maxVO2- pace workout , but just for some variation sometimes it can be e.g. 13- 15 x 600m , 8-10 x 800m or 7-8 x 1000m at same 5k race pace.
I've incorporated some of these into my own training. If you're fast enough, you can run 400s in 75 at ~5k pace or slower and get a lot of fast mileage in without that much strain on your body. It also makes you scarily efficient at paces close to it where your form will remain similar.
I've seen one person do 20x400 at (admittedly closer to CV effort) 75 before breaking 9 in the 32. While it's not fast for him at all, he looked completely at ease during it and I never saw his form break (meaning: his shoulders didn't go up, his arms didn't swing out, and he didn't change his cadence patterns). It's a way to get 5 miles in at 5:00 pace without needing nearly a week to recover from.
I've incorporated some of these into my own training. If you're fast enough, you can run 400s in 75 at ~5k pace or slower and get a lot of fast mileage in without that much strain on your body. It also makes you scarily efficient at paces close to it where your form will remain similar.
I've seen one person do 20x400 at (admittedly closer to CV effort) 75 before breaking 9 in the 32. While it's not fast for him at all, he looked completely at ease during it and I never saw his form break (meaning: his shoulders didn't go up, his arms didn't swing out, and he didn't change his cadence patterns). It's a way to get 5 miles in at 5:00 pace without needing nearly a week to recover from.
Do not know why my post was deleted? Wtf is going here?
Hey, admin, what does it mean " low or no-content post" are you kidding me?
I post again:
"You try 20x400 couple of months and report here, you will improve, but stail and stagnait. So that is why JS (magic coach) is promising imrovement after 2months, yes he is right, but what about next months? He does not tell. I've been coached by him about 6months and know what to tell, this is my experience with that kind of system. If you are smart runner you can use his weapon (Dancan system) but in proper time and place during your training, meaning that definitely you need a periodization approach like every good system 👐" If it would so simple..."
I was reading a book of a first day college practice. Sorry but it was either Jim Ryan or Dave Waddle. I read about both of them but it was likely Ryan. He talked about throwing up during and after the workout. The claim was 20 x 400. We use to do 16x400. Toughest workout was with Peter Maher at 8xmile on the track. About 11 of us started the workout only 7 finished with all under 5:00. Temp was in the 90's. Results; two weeks later we finished 1-2 at Manitoba Marathon.
I was just talking to a former athlete of mine, now out of college, about how in the first couple weeks of college cross country you'd go back to your dorm after a workout and just veg out all day.
From my Log, 2nd year of college, indoors. We were both 8:25 3k and 14:40ish 5k guys. We had a very slow 45 second jog in-between reps.
So this was 5k pace down to 3k and a bit faster. Arguably a bit fast given the short rest, but I think the important part was the effort was correct. Great thread!
"Very happy with today's workout. Started off easy, felt comfortable the whole time pretty much, even though it was just Spencer and I for the last 10. Happy to close in 59 as well. 71 71 69 68 69 69 68 67 67 67 69 66 67 67 66 66 66 66 65 59"
I've incorporated some of these into my own training. If you're fast enough, you can run 400s in 75 at ~5k pace or slower and get a lot of fast mileage in without that much strain on your body. It also makes you scarily efficient at paces close to it where your form will remain similar.
I've seen one person do 20x400 at (admittedly closer to CV effort) 75 before breaking 9 in the 32. While it's not fast for him at all, he looked completely at ease during it and I never saw his form break (meaning: his shoulders didn't go up, his arms didn't swing out, and he didn't change his cadence patterns). It's a way to get 5 miles in at 5:00 pace without needing nearly a week to recover from.
Do not know why my post was deleted? Wtf is going here?
Hey, admin, what does it mean " low or no-content post" are you kidding me?
I post again:
"You try 20x400 couple of months and report here, you will improve, but stail and stagnait. So that is why JS (magic coach) is promising imrovement after 2months, yes he is right, but what about next months? He does not tell. I've been coached by him about 6months and know what to tell, this is my experience with that kind of system. If you are smart runner you can use his weapon (Dancan system) but in proper time and place during your training, meaning that definitely you need a periodization approach like every good system 👐" If it would so simple..."
Hi Canefis, as fast as you write about the Swedish magic coach js your post will get deleted.Doesn't matter you don't break the rules for posting.LRC is not a place for fair play.Js give away alot of good stuff here but isn't treated like the great coach he really is.
I went to HS in a backwater Midwestern city with a coach who was the only one even half-interested in coaching, and we did this every spring probably in early April or so (didn't 'start' until March 1).
Averaged something like 80, 76, 73, 69 through the years. I recall closing in 58/9 for the last few my senior year. This was pretty standard for everyone, I thought.
Do not know why my post was deleted? Wtf is going here?
Hey, admin, what does it mean " low or no-content post" are you kidding me?
I post again:
"You try 20x400 couple of months and report here, you will improve, but stail and stagnait. So that is why JS (magic coach) is promising imrovement after 2months, yes he is right, but what about next months? He does not tell. I've been coached by him about 6months and know what to tell, this is my experience with that kind of system. If you are smart runner you can use his weapon (Dancan system) but in proper time and place during your training, meaning that definitely you need a periodization approach like every good system 👐" If it would so simple..."
Hi Canefis, as fast as you write about the Swedish magic coach js your post will get deleted.Doesn't matter you don't break the rules for posting.LRC is not a place for fair play.Js give away alot of good stuff here but isn't treated like the great coach he really is.