Why dont we build speed before establish a base??

Um, many people do.

You could work on absolute speed all year round, even when building a base. Speed endurance and anaerobic capacity however don't need to be focused on early in your train.

It's all about the base. About the base. No jerbil. It's all about the base. About the base. No jerbil. It's all about the base. About the base. No jerbil. It's all about the base. About the base. No jerbil. My mother said don't worry about your pace. Don't be no stick insect like a sub 32 guy.

Haha! That made me chuckle

The rational, as I understand it, is that aerobic base takes longer to build and the effect of the training is more persistent, so it is the emphasis earlier in most training programs. I believe this is discussed in Daniels' book.

I'm no expert, but building overall mileage and then consistently running said mileage at a moderate intensity allows you to handle a larger volume of high intensity work. This doesn't mean you can't do some light speed work during the base phase (short reps with lots of rest, or tempos at or slightly below marathon pace). But without a strong base, you would not be able to handle the volume of intensity it would take to make improvements and also be able to bounce back for the next session. For example, if you were to use Daniel's recommendation for percentages of total weekly volume to calculate your mileage of work at mile pace, you would run 5% of your weekly mileage at that pace. If your weekly mileage is 50 mpw, then your weekly volume at mile pace would be 2.5 miles. Compare that to 5% (5 miles) a week at an overall 100 mpw and... well I think you can see where I'm going with this. Basically every phase of run training should essentially be preparing you to handle the volume and intensity of the next phase, while zeroing in on your goal race pace. Of course this is greatly over simplified, but I hope it helps.

Because speed isn't the limiting factor in the 10k.

different muscle fibers my friend. if you're trying to develop speed through sprints/heavy lifting, you are working on your fast twitch fibers. those work fine for short bursts of speed but are useless over a largely aerobic event (10k is around 90% aerobic). building a base with will help you work on your developing your slow twitch muscle fibers as well as your heart/lungs to be able to run the entire distance.

same same but different wrote:

different muscle fibers my friend. if you're trying to develop speed through sprints/heavy lifting, you are working on your fast twitch fibers. those work fine for short bursts of speed but are useless over a largely aerobic event (10k is around 90% aerobic). building a base with will help you work on your developing your slow twitch muscle fibers as well as your heart/lungs to be able to run the entire distance.

Why not both? Percy Cerutty had the right idea. Lift heavy ass weight during the base phase and do plenty of hill reps/ fartlek runs during the base phase.

Why do you need a ‘base’? I know we are slaves to linear periodization because of Lydiard, but why not a non-linear periodization model?

Maybe something like this:

1 week high miles

1 week tempo/hard aerobic focused

1 week long interval focused

1 week short speed interval focused

Repeat all year. Each week progresses differently based on the focus of that week.

For a race week at 3 days out you do a short workout at that goal race pace. Nothing too fatiguing, but again based on that week’s race goal.

It’s an idea.

Alan

You do not need to run sub 12 or a 50 second 400 to run a 32 minute 10k. Not even close. Lifting heavy and training for sprinting is a waste of time if your ultimate goal is racing 10k.

The aerobic system takes a long time to develop, as does bone density and tendon strength.

These can all be improved steadily, safely, and easily for quite some time. It’s an easy win. What’s not to like about that?

Too much speedwork too early in a career is a recipe for an injured or burned out runner. It takes time to learn how to run well and it’s hard to take the time when you are always hurt.

Constant frustration doesn’t make better runners so if you’re looking for the safest and easiest path to success you would want to start building a decent base.

What would happen if you did Lydiard phases in reverse? I.e. sharpening phase first, than hill phase second and the base phase last.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Why do you need a ‘base’? I know we are slaves to linear periodization because of Lydiard, but why not a non-linear periodization model?

Maybe something like this:

1 week high miles

1 week tempo/hard aerobic focused

1 week long interval focused

1 week short speed interval focused

Repeat all year. Each week progresses differently based on the focus of that week.

For a race week at 3 days out you do a short workout at that goal race pace. Nothing too fatiguing, but again based on that week’s race goal.

It’s an idea.

Alan

Why a base? Because it takes 20+ weeks to develop your aerobic system and only 5 or so weeks to develop your anaerobic glycolitic system. You don't need to do 5x300 @85% in October if you're not racing until the Spring. However you can and should work your pure speed and power and aerobic systems all year.

Speed is more important than endurance. A world class 1500/5000 male runner may have 22.xx 200m speed. No one seems to run 5000m much faster than 13 minutes these days so multiply 22 times 35.4545454545, equals 780 or 13 minutes. Take the common 40 minute 10K runner. Going by the often self reported 65.xx 400m for 40 minute 10K runner, then 32 seconds 200m. 32 times 35.45454545 equals 1134.5454545 or 18:54.54 5K. I assume 40 minute 10K runners run about 18:54 5K. [I am sure some 40 minute 10K runners race 5K in 18:30; I assume other 40 minute 10K runners race 5K in 19:30.] Running 75 to 100 miles a week is not reducing anyone from a 32 to 22 200m sprinter. Become a fast sprinter as a kid and build from there. Some will say: One can run 13 minutes 5K with only 26 seconds 200m speed. Others will say: One can run 40 minutes 10K with only 36 seconds 200m speed. My response: There are always posters on letsrun bragging about their awful sprinting ability.

Depends on what your going for. If your in highschool and want to say win state, then train fast with high mileage and risk injury. If you want to run in good in college and have a long career, start building that base and leg strength for as long as you can until it really matters. Yes there are kids in highschool who don't run high mileage and don't train fast at a fast pace and still win state, but not many.

georgiakerrrrr wrote:

Let's say if I need to break 32 in the 10k, I need to be able to run at least 2minutes flat in the 800m.

With heavy weights + lots of sprinting and speedwork, my top speed will be faster and by the time I can run a sub12 secs 100m/ 50secs in the 400m,

I will just build endurance later on during the training cycle with the main focus on being able to sustain at fast speed longer.

Thoughts?

To be able to run 12-flat or 50 for 400m, you'll be getting the body working very anaerobically. All the fast-twitch will be full of anaerobic enzymes. It's impossible to then take that and create endurance.

If they're full of anaerobic enzymes your Lactate Threshold will be pushed down. And high LT is one of the key factors for success in the 10K.

So you'll end up having to do endurance work that comes from below the LT to push it back up.

In which case what did training to be quick over 100-400m achieve that you couldn't have done with some short leg speed reps?

I wish someone would chime in with the "squeezing a tube of toothpaste from the top" analogy and provide a physiological explanation.

In aerobic events like the 10K, the limiting factor is aerobic development. You develop your aerobic system by building a base in a periodization-type system like Lydiard or by increasing weekly mileage (with most of it being easy) in a "workouts throughout year" type strategy.

Auburn Staples, Raleigh, NC:

I'm a college runner averaging about 110 mpw. I was interested in how much water you drink.

Sometimes my legs are really tight and I think it's from lack of enough water. How much should I be drinking on a daily basis?

Haile Gebrselassie:

First of all, I am surprised that you already run 110 mpw. Please try to do more speed work and use your mileage for recovery. Maybe you are running too fast at your long runs?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/athletics/features/newsid_3301000/3301555.stm