You can hate on El Guerrouj all you want, but not for being a cheat.

casual obsever wrote:

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

Kiprop was caught last winter, and last season he couldn't break 3:33. So do you think he was clean last season and started doping to try to recover his form? He's still only 27 or something. Was he dirty when he ran 3:26 but you think he could have ran 3:30 clean?

From the shadows wrote:

That s strange. I had a good 1500m friend who train with ElG.

He told me he was clean.

I don't believe it, but still.

As to his retiring...when you have achieved everything and that it means training hard every day...and has meant training hard for so many years...

Maybe you don't know this feeling of relief that makes you let go.

It s done, man, it s done.

It's true I have no idea how I would feel in such a situation, but I can only go by observing how most top sports stars bow out, and it's rarely at the top. Why did Bolt go one one more year when he'd achieved everything after Rio? Probably because his accountant was telling him it would cost him $20 million to miss one more year.

Also, I've read that El G didn't announce his retirement immediately or even before the 2005 season, but then claimed to be injured in 2005. I suppose all good runs come to an end, but he'd never had a serious injury in the previous 10 years or more.

Imagining?

A man who understands the wider picture wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

+1

Read and learn folks, this is how things really work.

You don't have to remind me. But getting back to El G, given the poll results, there was no need to single me and ex-runner out, as if we were some kind of rare outliers here at letsrun, not to mention taking the liberty of mis-speaking for us.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Do you often pretend that you can speak for others? You are really very bad at it.

More significant than what I allegedly think, 43% of letsrunner's believed his world record performance was clean.

Not everyone falls victim to Moroccan stereotypes.

Funny Rekrunner, considering only something like 18% thought Kiprop was dirty, 12% for Keitany, 47% for Agerewa, 77.9% Shelley Ann-Fraser Price. Remember idiots also vote in elections.

Coevett wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

Kiprop was caught last winter, and last season he couldn't break 3:33. So do you think he was clean last season and started doping to try to recover his form? He's still only 27 or something. Was he dirty when he ran 3:26 but you think he could have ran 3:30 clean?

I would think if you swear that Coe & Cram were clean at 3:29.67 & 3:29.77, respectively, that Kiprop could at least run those same times clean. IMO, I'm thinking low 3:29's or maybe high 3:28's start getting suspicious.

rekrunner wrote:

You don't have to remind me.

But getting back to El G, given the poll results, there was no need to single me and ex-runner out, as if we were some kind of rare outliers here at letsrun, not to mention taking the liberty of mis-speaking for us.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Funny Rekrunner, considering only something like 18% thought Kiprop was dirty, 12% for Keitany, 47% for Agerewa, 77.9% Shelley Ann-Fraser Price. Remember idiots also vote in elections.

Who said anything about singling both of you out? I just pointed how unreliable those polls were thanks to the Fancy Bears hack.

Here's my take wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Kiprop was caught last winter, and last season he couldn't break 3:33. So do you think he was clean last season and started doping to try to recover his form? He's still only 27 or something. Was he dirty when he ran 3:26 but you think he could have ran 3:30 clean?

I would think if you swear that Coe & Cram were clean at 3:29.67 & 3:29.77, respectively, that Kiprop could at least run those same times clean. IMO, I'm thinking low 3:29's or maybe high 3:28's start getting suspicious.

That's the problem, suspicion. Supspicion is the bedfellow of Superstition.

There are no effing Performance Enhancing Drugs. The concept is a product of thousand of years old belief that the human body can be enhanced with drugs. We have more than 20 years of power data from cyclists to show that this is a construct, a fantasy.

What are these 'ethnic groups'?

I'm seeing some Kenyans, some Algerians, some Moroccans, a Spaniard, a Burundian, a French guy, someone from Djibouti and a Somali born Brit.

What are the two ethnic groups? Maybe you could put them all into an even more nondescript category of 'brown' for us?

Why don't you explain why the three fastest Norwegians, Scandinavians even, are three brothers from the same family? Or why the Belgian 4x400 team is basically the three Borlee brothers?

Maybe there is something to be said about lack of participation in these European countries? No? Do you not think some of the top cyclists would make good runners? People prefer other sports or to go to university.

it's 2018 not 1998 wrote:

Here's my take wrote:

I would think if you swear that Coe & Cram were clean at 3:29.67 & 3:29.77, respectively, that Kiprop could at least run those same times clean. IMO, I'm thinking low 3:29's or maybe high 3:28's start getting suspicious.

That's the problem, suspicion. Supspicion is the bedfellow of Superstition.

There are no effing Performance Enhancing Drugs. The concept is a product of thousand of years old belief that the human body can be enhanced with drugs. We have more than 20 years of power data from cyclists to show that this is a construct, a fantasy.

You mean all my guys failed drug tests for nothing? Ramzi, Boulami, Mourhit & co could have all accomplished their great feats without PEDs.? Well...I'm feeing better all ready knowing that my guys were the real deal and didn't need any PEDs at all.

Yes, Ramzi, Bolumi and Mourhit were that good. Shame they thought like you, but then that's what happens when everyone tells you that you will go faster with EPO. People don't question it. Sports science is very foolish on the subject, just believing that more red blood cells = more energy production. That's pure pseudoscience.

it's 2018 not 1998 wrote:

Yes, Ramzi, Bolumi and Mourhit were that good. Shame they thought like you, but then that's what happens when everyone tells you that you will go faster with EPO. People don't question it. Sports science is very foolish on the subject, just believing that more red blood cells = more energy production. That's pure pseudoscience.

There is a river. I have a bucket. I fill the bucket and carry the water home.

Now I ask my friend to help. He grabs a second bucket. We both fill our buckets with water and take it home.

How much water did I get the second time compared to the first? More, the same, or less?

A man who understands the wider picture wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

I do think a 3:30 or so is possible. Imagjne a clean El G or Kiprop for example.

But, such a talent wouldn't resist the temptation to become a world beater, and thus rich and famous. See eg El G and Kiprop.

+1

Read and learn folks, this is how things really work.

Which explains the odd distribution in times in Africa, especially Kenya, where the number of 'world beaters' is the same as the second tier, whereas in the rest of the world there is a much more even distribution between 3:30 and 3:40 runners.

Here's my take wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Kiprop was caught last winter, and last season he couldn't break 3:33. So do you think he was clean last season and started doping to try to recover his form? He's still only 27 or something. Was he dirty when he ran 3:26 but you think he could have ran 3:30 clean?

I would think if you swear that Coe & Cram were clean at 3:29.67 & 3:29.77, respectively, that Kiprop could at least run those same times clean. IMO, I'm thinking low 3:29's or maybe high 3:28's start getting suspicious.

Why? Because those lithe limbs look so elegant when he's running a 3:26? All we know is Kiprop is a confirmed doper, and that he suddenly went from being 3:26 to 3:33.

As far as El G is concerned, I'll admit he's a great athlete, and it's true he did dominate the competition in an era when at least all the top Africans appeared to be rocket fueled, but it's comparisons to other eras that can't really be drawn. The EPO era should be its own little bubble in the history of athletics.

No, it appears to be people on this board who are lumping Africans together as one ethnic group. The two broad ethnic groups are North African and East Africans. Yes, that's fine if you want to break them down tino smaller ethnic groups, it's still stark staringly obvious that they are come from Africa. Apart from one runner from Spain, which co-incidentally, is right next to Morocco.

What you are talking about with regards to 'one family'? Are the 15 or so Kenyans on the list all from the same family? What's your point glute brain?

Africa is a big place matey. It's far more populated than Europe and that's not considering the difficulty in getting accurate population estimates in rural areas.

And the point about the Ingerbrigtsens and the Borlees is that clearly these European countries do have talent, but the participation levels are low. If your three best runners come from the same family then clearly your country has no depth. That can only be because hardly anyone else in the country is trying to make it and rival the Borlees or Ingerbrigstens.

In Norway people would rather do winter sports. In Belgium is cycling and football. How many Ethiopian cyclists are there? Numbers matter, first and foremost, far greater than the drugs issue when we are talking about depth. If EPO became widely available and undetectable in the UK, our cyclists would take off (even more) but there wouldn't suddenly be an army of 3:30 runners because most people simply don't aspire to be 1500m runners.

Also competition drives performance. You saw in in the days of Coe and Cram and now we are seeing it again in the men's 800m. I don't know the last time we had 4/5 guys who can run 1:44. Making that team is tough now and so the guys are stepping up their games to beat eachother. It happens in Kenya too.

Physical correspondence wrote:

it's 2018 not 1998 wrote:

Yes, Ramzi, Bolumi and Mourhit were that good. Shame they thought like you, but then that's what happens when everyone tells you that you will go faster with EPO. People don't question it. Sports science is very foolish on the subject, just believing that more red blood cells = more energy production. That's pure pseudoscience.

There is a river. I have a bucket. I fill the bucket and carry the water home.

Now I ask my friend to help. He grabs a second bucket. We both fill our buckets with water and take it home.

How much water did I get the second time compared to the first? More, the same, or less?

Umm, dunno, I give up. But is it true you shot the sheriff, but you didn't shoot the deputy?

GBnothingWithoutFarah wrote:

It's like that here, Racist vermin dominate here, most of them grumpy old men.

Perhaps ageism, too.

Coevett.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

You don't have to remind me.

But getting back to El G, given the poll results, there was no need to single me and ex-runner out, as if we were some kind of rare outliers here at letsrun, not to mention taking the liberty of mis-speaking for us.

Who said anything about singling both of you out? I just pointed how unreliable those polls were thanks to the Fancy Bears hack.

It's an interesting split you've chosen. I wish I had thought of it. While North Africans are competitive with East Africans in shorter distances like the 1500m, and 3000m, they start to "fall behind" in the longer 5000m, 10000m, and marathon. Yet in all events, their best still outperformed non-Africans.

Coevett wrote:

No, it appears to be people on this board who are lumping Africans together as one ethnic group. The two broad ethnic groups are North African and East Africans. Yes, that's fine if you want to break them down tino smaller ethnic groups, it's still stark staringly obvious that they are come from Africa. Apart from one runner from Spain, which co-incidentally, is right next to Morocco.

What you are talking about with regards to 'one family'? Are the 15 or so Kenyans on the list all from the same family? What's your point glute brain?