The IAAF fires back at Billie Jean King and the WSF: "Without limits, (women's sport) would cease to exist"

Trans Runner wrote:

I am a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be (and longtime competitive runner) and FULLY support this move. Even though this ruling seems to be aimed at runners with intersex or androgen receptor mutations, I think the principle holds true for men who want to be women as well.

Also, from talking with othermen who want to be women, the majority of us agree that it is unfair to allow men who want to be women to compete against actual, real, genetic women. It is only a vocal minority which are pushing for men who want to be women or intersex "women" to be able to compete against actual, real, genetic women, and the vast majority of us realize it is unfair.

This is because a lot of men who want to be women like me suffer from what is called "gender-dysphoria" meaning we hate the fact that we have permanent male secondary sex characteristics due to puberty (i.e. broad shoulders, large hands and feet, higher muscle mass, low voices), and most of these changes don't go away despite 5+ years of hormone replacement therapy (i.e. decreasing testosterone and increasing estrogen levels). But we recognize that those characteristics, especially the permanent ones like bone structure and muscle mass, give an advantage to men who want to be women but aren't and never will be even after taking gender affirming hormones like estrogen. Especially at high level competition where every second counts, those small percentage gains add up.

However, the positive message I always tell other men who want to be women is that this doesn't mean people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't should be excluded from sport entirely. I still love running with friends, compete on the roads against both other men and women (in the M category, obviously as I am male), and potentially even coaching in the future. Overall, runners are a pretty accepting group and I feel like people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't can still be involved (especially on the roads when all compete at the same time),

Anyways, thought I would add my perspective as a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be .

Trans Runner wrote:

I am a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be (and longtime competitive runner) and FULLY support this move. Even though this ruling seems to be aimed at runners with intersex or androgen receptor mutations, I think the principle holds true for men who want to be women as well.

Also, from talking with othermen who want to be women, the majority of us agree that it is unfair to allow men who want to be women to compete against actual, real, genetic women. It is only a vocal minority which are pushing for men who want to be women or intersex "women" to be able to compete against actual, real, genetic women, and the vast majority of us realize it is unfair.

This is because a lot of men who want to be women like me suffer from what is called "gender-dysphoria" meaning we hate the fact that we have permanent male secondary sex characteristics due to puberty (i.e. broad shoulders, large hands and feet, higher muscle mass, low voices), and most of these changes don't go away despite 5+ years of hormone replacement therapy (i.e. decreasing testosterone and increasing estrogen levels). But we recognize that those characteristics, especially the permanent ones like bone structure and muscle mass, give an advantage to men who want to be women but aren't and never will be even after taking gender affirming hormones like estrogen. Especially at high level competition where every second counts, those small percentage gains add up.

However, the positive message I always tell other men who want to be women is that this doesn't mean people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't should be excluded from sport entirely. I still love running with friends, compete on the roads against both other men and women (in the M category, obviously as I am male), and potentially even coaching in the future. Overall, runners are a pretty accepting group and I feel like people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't can still be involved (especially on the roads when all compete at the same time),

Anyways, thought I would add my perspective as a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be .

rojo wrote:

I was very pleased to get the following statement from the IAAF this morning (emphasis is added by me).

I'm making excerpts from it the QOD so check out the front page.

The IAAF wrote:

The IAAF has today responded to an open letter from the Women’s Sports Foundation and Athlete Ally, which requested that the IAAF rescind the new eligibility regulations for the female classification, due to come into effect on November 1, 2018.

IAAF RESPONSE TO OPEN LETTER

The IAAF has not and will never try to prevent women from participating in athletics.

In fact, the IAAF has been one of the foremost advocates for women’s sport for almost a century. It has long championed equal access to competition and equal prize money at a time when many other sports still discriminate in this area.

Contrary to claims made in an open letter written by the US-based Women’s Sports Foundation, the IAAF’s new female classification rule does not seek to prevent any woman from competing in athletics.

Under the Regulations, women with Differences of Sexual Development (DSD/intersex) will be eligible to compete in any event at domestic level. They will be eligible to compete in all but distances from 400m up to 1 mile on the international championship programme. They will also be eligible to compete in those distances if they take measures to ensure their testosterone levels are under 5nmol/L (which puts them on an even playing field with the rest of the female population). They will be eligible to compete in male and intersex competition. The choice is theirs.

The IAAF seeks only to maintain a fair and meaningful category for women to compete in athletics. It makes no judgment about gender or sexual identity. It has only acted upon the scientific evidence established by esteemed scientists around the world, which shows that i) there is correlation between testosterone and performance in at least certain specific athletic events, ii) women who produce testosterone in the normal male range, and are androgen-sensitive, thereby enjoy a substantial physical advantage over women who produce testosterone in the normal female range.

The women’s category of sport is by nature a restricted category. Without limits, it would cease to exist and it is the responsibility of the sport’s governing body to establish those limits.

In the same way, under 20 competition is restricted to those athletes who are under 20, because those who are over 20 have a natural biological advantage over younger athletes who are still developing into adults.

Sports that have weight divisions to establish fair competition also impose limits that require some athletes, male and female, to change their body composition in order to abide by the rules of that event.

This rule has been established under the same principles that have governed fair competition in sport throughout its history.

The IAAF has been a leading supporter of women in sport for most of its long history and will continue to be.

IAAF

This whole hyperandrogenism thing needs to be flipped on its head. The IAAF is trying to save women's sports but if a man says it it falls on deaf ears. Women have to lead the way and get the PR out there that IAAF is trying to save women's sports.

I was talking to a female friend of mine who isn't a track fan but is a sports fan. I told her about what is happening in Connecticut right now at the high school level. Humans are competing as boys at the indoor state meet and then switching to women at the outdoor meet three months later and winning everything in site.

Her reply to me, "Wow. That needs to be stopped. As if men don't already do enough to keep women done. Now you guys are getting desperate and pretending to be women so you can dominate our sports."

While I don't think we should transgender people are "pretending", I do think she nailed the essence of the matter perfectly. If you have a ton of testosterone in you, you can't be allowed to compete in women's sports. Whether that testosteone comes from you having a penis or internal testicles isn't really anyone's business. We don't want to sexual examine you, we just want to limit it.

missing information wrote:

wtf rojo - are you seriously comparing unregulated high school running to the most heavily regulated levels of sub/elite collegiate, national and international racing?

and wtf is with grouping together intersex and transgender?

they are completely different situations

the ignorance in the first post is breathtaking

actually "ignorance" is the wrong word because both of you most certainly know better by now, so it's simply outright bigotry

as the saying goes, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not entitled to your own facts

athletes who are intersex may have the highest level of testosterone among women - you can argue all you want about what genetic advantages you like vs which ones you do not like, ACTN3 vs 2x, 3x the level of testosterone, etc.

but athletes who are transgender (by national and international regulations, not unregulated high school) will have the LOWEST level of testosterone among women

there will never, ever, be a woman runner in the Olympics who is transgender, never ever, it's physically impossible, they have one third the testosterone (or less) of other elite women

last but not least, intersex and transgendered athletes are the smallest minority you could possibly imagine in sports

stop bullying minorities, it's disgusting, you are embarrassing yourself, and most certainly on the wrong side of history

baseball-02 wrote:

runnerdave wrote:

I wish we could hear more from the elite women - and not random men, regarding this issue. I wonder if they hesitate to speak openly so as to not sound like whiners or something. Bottom line - if there isn't some kind of rules or standards established, then the very best of the elite women, training to their max, are competing on a non-level playing field, and that's plain wrong.

Elite women have spoken out and been shouted down by the PC police, had sponsorships threatened, or called bigots and whiners. There is no winning position for them.

4-5-6 in the 800 Rio

Melissa Bishop has remained very tactful on the issue as she lives in a top PC country, but with a new baby will she have the motivation to come back if there is nothing done?

Joczwik spoke out, lives in Poland - one of the least PC places left and appeared to get a lot of support, but she seems to have quit racing.

Sharp spoke out, was widely condemned, and is not as sharp this year.

Really hard to get motivated for the training if the best you can possibly achieve is 3rd, only because Wambui seems much weaker this year.

NERunner053 wrote:

baseball-02 wrote:

Elite women have spoken out and been shouted down by the PC police, had sponsorships threatened, or called bigots and whiners. There is no winning position for them.

Ya'll need better heroes than white runners who feel entitled. Jozwik who said she was the 1st european & 2nd white person in the 2016 olympic final. sharp has been in plenty of trouble on social media before.

the reality is there are systemic problems that many people on here do not want to consider. the iaaf does not get to get humanized here. things would be completely different if Semenya was white and European or North American. The outrage on here would not be the same. The rule targets her events. White athletes are looking for people at the top, who have historically been white and make rules that help white folks, to act. It's problematic and the response on here is problematic.

The Emperor's New Clothes wrote:

Trans Runner wrote:

I am a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be (and longtime competitive runner) and FULLY support this move. Even though this ruling seems to be aimed at runners with intersex or androgen receptor mutations, I think the principle holds true for men who want to be women as well.

Also, from talking with othermen who want to be women, the majority of us agree that it is unfair to allow men who want to be women to compete against actual, real, genetic women. It is only a vocal minority which are pushing for men who want to be women or intersex "women" to be able to compete against actual, real, genetic women, and the vast majority of us realize it is unfair.

This is because a lot of men who want to be women like me suffer from what is called "gender-dysphoria" meaning we hate the fact that we have permanent male secondary sex characteristics due to puberty (i.e. broad shoulders, large hands and feet, higher muscle mass, low voices), and most of these changes don't go away despite 5+ years of hormone replacement therapy (i.e. decreasing testosterone and increasing estrogen levels). But we recognize that those characteristics, especially the permanent ones like bone structure and muscle mass, give an advantage to men who want to be women but aren't and never will be even after taking gender affirming hormones like estrogen. Especially at high level competition where every second counts, those small percentage gains add up.

However, the positive message I always tell other men who want to be women is that this doesn't mean people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't should be excluded from sport entirely. I still love running with friends, compete on the roads against both other men and women (in the M category, obviously as I am male), and potentially even coaching in the future. Overall, runners are a pretty accepting group and I feel like people who want to be the opposite sex but aren't can still be involved (especially on the roads when all compete at the same time),

Anyways, thought I would add my perspective as a man who wants to be a woman but isn't and never will be .

Amazing how many times they repeat their delusion until we all bow down and agree. The emperor has new clothes!

And if you don't agree with the delusion you are a bigot and can be fired, ostracised, shamed and perhaps even arrested soon.

The LBGT agenda has nothing to do with living their own lives in peace, and everything to do with forcing everybody else to agree with their worldview. If you don't submit you are, for now, subjected to a form of McCarthyism. But ultimately they just want you locked up like a criminal.

The world has truly gone mad.

NERunner053 wrote:

baseball-02 wrote:

Elite women have spoken out and been shouted down by the PC police, had sponsorships threatened, or called bigots and whiners. There is no winning position for them.

4-5-6 in the 800 Rio

Melissa Bishop has remained very tactful on the issue as she lives in a top PC country, but with a new baby will she have the motivation to come back if there is nothing done?

Joczwik spoke out, lives in Poland - one of the least PC places left and appeared to get a lot of support, but she seems to have quit racing.

Sharp spoke out, was widely condemned, and is not as sharp this year.

Really hard to get motivated for the training if the best you can possibly achieve is 3rd, only because Wambui seems much weaker this year.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/23/caster-semenya-olympic-spirit-iaaf-athletes-women

Ya'll need better heroes than white runners who feel entitled. Jozwik who said she was the 1st european & 2nd white person in the 2016 olympic final. sharp has been in plenty of trouble on social media before.

the reality is there are systemic problems that many people on here do not want to consider. the iaaf does not get to get humanized here. things would be completely different if Semenya was white and European or North American. The outrage on here would not be the same. The rule targets her events. White athletes are looking for people at the top, who have historically been white and make rules that help white folks, to act. It's problematic and the response on here is problematic.

runnerdave wrote:

Watching Semenya win this 1000 - it seems so obvious to me that something is really wrong here. I've worked with trans women and totally support their societal rights, but when it comes to women's athletics, supporting the inclusion of intersex and trans individuals makes the women's category meaningless - and doing away with all definitions of gender would eliminate women's competition entirely, which is ridiculous.

It's a really thorny problem, obviously, but I think the IAAF in striving as best it can to resolve the issue and level the field in women's competition.

I just find it really wrong that the best world class elite women (and, also the best, local high school girls) have to compete at a disadvantage against individuals with obvious advantages.

I understand that puts women who have a high regard for global inclusiveness in a bind, but there needs to be some reasonable solution to level the playing field in women's athletics.

I wish we could hear more from the elite women - and not random men, regarding this issue. I wonder if they hesitate to speak openly so as to not sound like whiners or something. Bottom line - if there isn't some kind of rules or standards established, then the very best of the elite women, training to their max, are competing on a non-level playing field, and that's plain wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQN82c3U_yg