1500m WR is now 20 years old!

Seems like the sport was doing okay back in 2004. Maybe it's people on a crusade for doping justice that have brought endurance sports to their knees? The Tour De France has never been as big without Lance. Track is dwindling without constant threat to WR's and guys sprinting for home at 3:30, 12:50, etc. I'm never gonna be one of those guys competing for Olympic Gold, so what does it matter? I'd rather be entertained, than feel some sort of "justice" as I watch some guys run another tactical 1500m.

ja wrote:

Best thing about El G is that he would be wasted after his races, on the ground, catching his breath.

You rarely see that now a days.

GOAT

That's what Laura Muir usually does!

*It wasn't improved by 1.6% today, no non doped up athlete can get close to it today, despite the populations of Morocco and Kenya both doubling, the Monaco track, Nike Kangeroo 4% etc. etc. It was improved by 1.4% only 13 years after Cram/Aouita's runs, despite no real new advance in training or anything else (apart from EPO). El G ran almost a second faster a lap than Cram only 13 years before, who was clearly one of the most talented 1500m runners ever seen.

*Yes, Bernard Lagat was clearly doping then (he actually failed the A sample of a test), and who knows if he is doping now? Who knows what the long term effects of EPO use are? It's been proven by two studies that EPO use has anti-aging effects.

*Did you read any of my posts? El G's career spanned the EPO era almost to the day. Of all the leading athletes, he would have had the most benefit out of all the EPO users. You just mentioned Lagat ran close to him (Lagat being a 3:41 man at 22). Ngeny looked set to run much faster if it wasn't for the 'car accident'. Hell Kiprop, who clearly can't run faster than 3:34 even microdosing EPO, ran 3:26 when he was probably not even full throttle like El G. Coe, Cram, Ovett raced a fast 1500 maybe twice a season. They also suffered horrendously from injuries, bad luck, ill health, and had ridiculously poor pacemakers compared to El G. It's quite plausible they could have ran low 3:28 clean, yet a pharmaceutical experiment ran 3:26 and is considered the goat? To ask 'where were all the other doped up runners'? is misleading. You should ask 'where were all the American, European, British, New Zealand guys? Probably totally demotivated and given up the sport in their teens or never getting close to their potential. In other words, they didn't dope. If EPO had been invented 20 years earlier, the whole history of the 1500m would likely have been completely different. Maybe we would never have heard of Walker, Ovett, Coe, Cram, and we'd be talking about some other African who ran an astonishing 3:29 all the way back in 1982, taking two seconds off Morcelli's (the older brother's) WR!!!!

no you don't wrote:

Seriously, I've got work to do wrote:

KB was certainly on CERA for awhile.

Ah, yes, typical LRC. "With my current sub-sub-elite talent level, I can't comprehend how someone could run that fast, therefore I am 'certain' that he doped...and because I'm personally 'certain,' then it's a true certainty." LOL.

We know that Bekele's fiancee likely died of a CERA overdose. Around this time many cyclists used to plain old epo accidentally were overdosing on the drug because they don't know/forgot that you need to shoot up far less regularly.

If you weren't on epo between 1990-2012 you couldn't compete.

I call this "appealing to the masses". Why not let "letsrunners" speak for themselves? In a recent survey conducted by letsrun, it's true that a lot of letsrunners don't think El G was clean. It also true that a lot of letsrunners do think El G was clean: 57% -- dirty 43% -- clean

Are you sure? wrote:

Kvothe wrote:

A lot of letsrunners don't think El G was clean.

Except rekrunner.

rekrunner wrote:

I call this "appealing to the masses". Why not let "letsrunners" speak for themselves?

In a recent survey conducted by letsrun, it's true that a lot of letsrunners don't think El G was clean.

It also true that a lot of letsrunners do think El G was clean:

57% -- dirty

43% -- clean

Are you sure? wrote:

Except rekrunner.

A lot of people think that Elvis lives in Bermuda. ?

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I call this "appealing to the masses". Why not let "letsrunners" speak for themselves?

In a recent survey conducted by letsrun, it's true that a lot of letsrunners don't think El G was clean.

It also true that a lot of letsrunners do think El G was clean:

57% -- dirty

43% -- clean

A lot of people think that Elvis lives in Bermuda. ?

I think nearly 20% of LetsRunners in that survey thought Marita Koch and Flo Jo were clean too.

Chris Fraude wrote:

they like him wrote:

listen to the madness of Brendan Foster and Crammy coevett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8vx0MxU9L0&feature=player_embedded

There's no way that Brendan Foster, Steve Cram and Seb Coe, being the competitors that they were, would have been silent if they had the slightest suspicion of Hicham being on peds. Simlarly, none of the top guys from that era, have ever once slipped any suggestion that they suspected anybody else of doping.

First of all, I was talking about Walker, Coe, Ovett, and Cram as competitors with each other. For example, the rivalry between Ovett and Coe being such, it seems implausible to believe that if the former suspected Coe of blood doping, that he would never have let it slip in the countless interviews he's given in the 30 years since.

I must admit, it is somewhat troubling the fact that Coe, Ovett and Cram seem to 'like' El G, and for that matter, Aouita. Then again, even Aouita didn't really deny the Brits much glory, apart from removing Cram's records at 1500 and 2000. I have found the way Aouita dodged all three consistantly (except Ovett at 5000m when Ovett wasn't a real threat for gold) was a little suspicious. Maybe there was some kind of tacit agreement that they would turn a blind eye to suspicions regarding Aouita if he kept largely to the 5000?

As far as the commentary on El G races by Cram and Ovett, they were being paid to do their job. Perhaps they are just glad they didn't have to compete in such an era of doping? Ovett encouraged his son to go into cycling because he felt it was less filled with drug cheats than middle-distance running these days. Maybe they did accept that El G was the best of his generation in which nearly everybody was doping on EPO?

doctorj wrote:

Coevett wrote:

The only good thing about that WR is it had Ovett commentating on it live.

The Kenyan pacemakers only dropped out after 1400m. Back then, even pacemakers could go for 1400m at 3:26 pace.

Even if El G was clean, none of his times would have been possible without doped up training partners and pacemakers.

He was as clean as Ovette and Coe, whom both sucked compared to the great El G. That’s your reality pal, swallow it.

You need to be struck off pal. You appear to be a registered doctor in the USA who defends dopers and who has talked about randomly maiming people on the street for 'irritating' you.

Are there any athletes among your patients pal?

Oh, and even if Ovett and Coe were doped to the gills, they didn't have EPO which would certainly have given them at least several seconds over 1500. That's the reality pal.

It's possible as well (although I'll admit unlikely) that Cram and the rest genuinely didn't suspect El G and the others at the time of being on EPO. At what point was it obvious that these performances were EPO fuelled?(and I'm discounting the loons here who still can't see it as obvious).

Maybe when Ramzi came on the scene? Listen to Foster and Cram's commentary on Ramzi achieving the double at the 2005 World Championships. At around the 2 minute mark, both can audibly be heard barely suppressing their laughter :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tRWhGaefa4

Oh, and personally I think Foster is a clown. Both he and Cram's treatment of Coe in 88 after the Seoul Olympic selection were shameful. I remember Foster talking on BBC and saying that if Coe was angry about the decision he should go out and break some world records, like (I think) Pavo Nurmi did when he was controversially not selected to defend his Olympic titles. Then Foster, with a smirk on his face, said 'well Coe isn't in the same class as Nurmi'. What a twat.

Coevett wrote:

I must admit, it is somewhat troubling the fact that Coe, Ovett and Cram seem to 'like' El G, and for that matter, Aouita.

All of that can be easily understood by all of them being equally dirty (or clean for the fanbois here).

Similarly, no big coach is officially condemning the Rosas...

casual obsever wrote:

Coevett wrote:

I must admit, it is somewhat troubling the fact that Coe, Ovett and Cram seem to 'like' El G, and for that matter, Aouita.

All of that can be easily understood by all of them being equally dirty (or clean for the fanbois here).

Similarly, no big coach is officially condemning the Rosas...

Yeah exactly.

The very easy explanation for why Britain used to produce 3:30 guys in an era where blood doping was legal and testing was all round poor, and why Kenya produces 3:30 guys in an era where testing is poor and the drugs are easy to obtain, and why Morocco had good runners in the EPO era, is that all those greats were doped to the proverbial eyeballs.

Not saying it's the correct explanation. But it's the easiest one that fits.

ex-runner wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

All of that can be easily understood by all of them being equally dirty (or clean for the fanbois here).

Similarly, no big coach is officially condemning the Rosas...

Yeah exactly.

The very easy explanation for why Britain used to produce 3:30 guys in an era where blood doping was legal and testing was all round poor, and why Kenya produces 3:30 guys in an era where testing is poor and the drugs are easy to obtain, and why Morocco had good runners in the EPO era, is that all those greats were doped to the proverbial eyeballs.

Not saying it's the correct explanation. But it's the easiest one that fits.

^Note that this guy was a UK championship 800m runner.

You also still can't explain why Britain couldn't produce 3:30 guys when EPO was legal, just 10 years after the likes of Coe, Ovett, Cram were running these times supposedly because blood doping was legal.

casual obsever wrote:

Coevett wrote:

I must admit, it is somewhat troubling the fact that Coe, Ovett and Cram seem to 'like' El G, and for that matter, Aouita.

All of that can be easily understood by all of them being equally dirty (or clean for the fanbois here).

Similarly, no big coach is officially condemning the Rosas...

So why did Foster and Cram clearly recognize Ramzi as being dirty (an before the bust)? Maybe they just didn't want to believe without conclusive proof that athletics was going to the dogs? After Ramzi, maybe they were a little bit more clued up like a lot of people.

Also, again, Cram can't say in the middle of a broadcast that the thought El G was dirty. Sounds like he genuinely wanted him to beat Lagat in the 2004 final, but if he thought El G was dirty, he would think that Lagat was dirty too.

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Yeah exactly.

The very easy explanation for why Britain used to produce 3:30 guys in an era where blood doping was legal and testing was all round poor, and why Kenya produces 3:30 guys in an era where testing is poor and the drugs are easy to obtain, and why Morocco had good runners in the EPO era, is that all those greats were doped to the proverbial eyeballs.

Not saying it's the correct explanation. But it's the easiest one that fits.

^Note that this guy was a UK championship 800m runner.

You also still can't explain why Britain couldn't produce 3:30 guys when EPO was legal, just 10 years after the likes of Coe, Ovett, Cram were running these times supposedly because blood doping was legal.

I didn't run/wasn't born in any of these eras where dope was freely accessible. As I've said, I am still under 30 years old. Different, cleaner era when I was running, not like back then in the 80s and 90s.

Yeah I have no explanation as to why EPO, a drug that must be kept refrigerated and so requires some level of sophistication in using it, would be easier to get hold of in a developing country Vs the UK.

Doping was extremely popular amongst all the Europeans and Americans in cycling. Maybe lots of our talent went to cycling during the EPO era rather than athletics, where the money is much better.

Maybe he did it too obviously? Or they didn't like him?

" without conclusive proof that athletics was going to the dogs"? Kidding? That the sport was dirty, is well documented since decades. Open your eyes.

No? See Ramzi. Or Ayana.

Less talent, less interest. Actually that Brits on EPO couldn't run 3:30 would be even harder to explain if Coe, Ovett, Cram were clean, for that would imply that those Brits had the talent to go under 3:26.

Ramzi did it too obviously, so they didn't like him, as opposed to El G whose lifetime of EPO abuse was much more to their liking? Or maybe they just didn't like him?

Very convincing.

They didn't say in the middle of a broadcast that Ramzi was doping, but they did show it indirectly by their giggling in the video I posted. Cram came out and said he always suspected Ramzi AFTER he got busted.

Cram, Coe, and Ovett were all friendly with Aouita, who by all accounts, had a very charming (if erratic and occasionally violent) personality. It's quite plausible that all three were hoodwinked by him and formed the impression that maybe North Africans were a bit different, and only clued up on what was going on when Ramzi came out of nowhere (and was subsequently busted).

Maybe the apparent fact that Cram and co never suspected El G (or Aouita) of doping actually suggests doping was not standard or even widespread in middle-distance running before EPO.

Cram, Coe, Ovett being clean doesn't suggest that that EPO runners who you admit had less talent could run 3:26. It means they had slightly less talent, or were simply demotivated by the EPO competition, and hence ran 3:32, just two seconds slower than the 80s Brits. You're clutching at straws here. Cram, Coe, Ovett ran 3:29/3:30 and were clearly capable of better if paced better. Even if they were blood doped, it's unlikely to say the least that any doping was equivalent to what regular full throttle EPO could have produced. So let's say they would have ran 3:26 like EL G with EPO (assuming they were dirty as you say. I would say they could have ran sub 3:25 with EPO). Cram, Coe, Ovett would have ran 3:26 with EPO but the Brits just 10 years later ran 3:32 with EPO, and this proves that Cram, Coe, and Ovett were dirty??

I think it would be very hard for Cram to have been commentating all these decades, countless discussion and interviews where he talks about doping, if he had been doping himself. I know it's a truism that the worst dopers have often been the most strident 'anti-dopers', but reading and hearing Cram sounds convincing to me.