Are VO2max workouts a waste of time?

I think Tinman might say something related to this topic as well. Reading Tinman's blogs, I think (and I don't want to speak for Tinman though) he'd say H.S. kids race so much that the weekly XC race is the VO2 Max stimulus. So, there's no need to use a workout on VO2 Max. I think Tinman would suggest the CV pace is a much better workout.

On the other hand, if you read Scott Christensen's material, he's all about the VO2 Max workout on a 14 Day Micro-Cycle (versus weekly micro-cycle).

I really appreciate all that Magness does, but as a high school coach, his workouts are way too complicated for multiple people. Coaching high school is often like herding cats with a lot of different paces & efforts going on. Something much simpler needs to be used (with your team of 30+ kids or 80+ kids).

Often, too, with Magness, he does a wonderful job questioning current understanding of exercise physiology, but often leaves you hanging without a solution. I know that may be where we are (as coaches & runners), but what is the next step in training?

It is fairly absurd to say changing VO2mx doesn't affect performance. The most important value that is associated with distance-running performance is clearly vVO2max, which determines the speed at which you can race based on your economy curve and VO2max. This means by improving either your economy or your VO2max, performance will improve.

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hog wrote:

It is fairly absurd to say changing VO2mx doesn't affect performance. The most important value that is associated with distance-running performance is clearly vVO2max, which determines the speed at which you can race based on your economy curve and VO2max. This means by improving either your economy or your VO2max, performance will improve.

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another runner wrote:

I know this is an older article and idea but I came across this while reading Steve's book and would like to hear some opinions on it. I think he does make a good point that improving VO2max doesn't change performance so why are we so focused on it. I think there are other benefits from these VO2max workouts but I don't think they are the benefits that coaches are trying to produce.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/08/do-we-need-vo2max-workouts.html?v=7516fd43adaa

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Runningart2004 wrote:

Workouts shouldn’t be based on physiological variables.....they should be based on your race goals. Physiological variables will improve as a result, but are not the most important result. Time and place are the most important result

Alan

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So... the importance of running economy is greater among homogenous groups of runners (those with similar vo2max). To completely throw vo2max out the window is just plain stupid... especially when looking at a wide range of abilities. If you truly don’t believe in vo2max then you are suggesting that someone with a max of 45 can beat a runner with a max of 80.... Never gonna happen, never

Moran.

I really think he`s got a point there! When we usually refer to VO2max workouts we know(most of us) that the speed in that kind of workout almost never reaches 100% of VO2. I say it`s mostly a case of terminology……..

When I use to discuss with for example Smoove and talk about that it`s enough perfect to do short reps in a so called VO2max workout ( like 20 x 400m as my special one) , the counterargument will be that of Daniels ( and a couple of more coaches and scientists) that tells you must run at least 2 min reps to reach VO2max. But even if running 2-5 min at that pace you will not reach exactly 100% VO2 . To raise your VO2max up to an individual possible number is a total case of all the different factors in the training system that collaborates. After that number is reached you can`t do anything to raise it more………

So what is the real meaning of VO2max workouts according to what I say? Well, .. it`s more of a "pace-case", a question about running at close to your VO2max and at the same time teach the body to be more energy efficient at that pace.

It`s more like what Woldemar Gerschler told ; It`s not mainly the effort in the reps that makes the heart to grow stronger and be more efficient, it`s the recovery!

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Dril wrote:

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hog wrote:

It is fairly absurd to say changing VO2mx doesn't affect performance. The most important value that is associated with distance-running performance is clearly vVO2max, which determines the speed at which you can race based on your economy curve and VO2max. This means by improving either your economy or your VO2max, performance will improve.

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This is so circular. It makes my head hurt.

Daniels showed that runners with the same PRs can have very different v02max. I’m not sure how you are interpreting this as v02max as being the most important value.

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Runningart2004 wrote:

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another runner wrote:

I know this is an older article and idea but I came across this while reading Steve's book and would like to hear some opinions on it. I think he does make a good point that improving VO2max doesn't change performance so why are we so focused on it. I think there are other benefits from these VO2max workouts but I don't think they are the benefits that coaches are trying to produce.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/08/do-we-need-vo2max-workouts.html?v=7516fd43adaa

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Workouts shouldn’t be based on physiological variables.....they should be based on your race goals. Physiological variables will improve as a result, but are not the most important result. Time and place are the most important result

Alan

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I didn't say VO2max was the most important; I said vVO2max (velocity at VO2max) is the most important.

If you are trying to accomplish a goal where improving your VO2 max is helpful, then it is not a waste of time. For example, if you are trying to run a faster 3K or 5K or mile etc. or increase endurance for sport, it is not a waste of time. There could be more valuable uses of your time however.

If you are not trying to accomplish such a goal, then yes it is a waste of time. For example, for most of the world, doing a VO2 max workout would be a waste of time.

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another runner wrote:

I know this is an older article and idea but I came across this while reading Steve's book and would like to hear some opinions on it. I think he does make a good point that improving VO2max doesn't change performance so why are we so focused on it. I think there are other benefits from these VO2max workouts but I don't think they are the benefits that coaches are trying to produce.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/08/do-we-need-vo2max-workouts.html?v=7516fd43adaa

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hog wrote:

I didn't say VO2max was the most important; I said vVO2max (velocity at VO2max) is the most important.

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uh no, the takeaway is that in trained individuals, v02max doesn't improve as a result of further training and doesn't explain improvements in performance.

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hog wrote:

I didn't say VO2max was the most important; I said vVO2max (velocity at VO2max) is the most important.

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well,, wrote:

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another runner wrote:

I know this is an older article and idea but I came across this while reading Steve's book and would like to hear some opinions on it. I think he does make a good point that improving VO2max doesn't change performance so why are we so focused on it. I think there are other benefits from these VO2max workouts but I don't think they are the benefits that coaches are trying to produce.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/08/do-we-need-vo2max-workouts.html?v=7516fd43adaa

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What Magness means is that you don´t classify workouts from physiology. When I was a 1500m runner I would do this workout early in the track season: 1000(10m rest)/2x500(3m rest)/3x300(2m rest)/4x200(1m rest) all at 1500m pace. Was I doing a "Vo2max workout" then, or what?

What about this, done during winter builup: 2x700+4x200 hill+2x1000+4x200 hill+2x1300+4x200 hill (all with 2 min rest).
Was that a "Vo2max workout"?

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SmartButttt wrote:

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Runningart2004 wrote:

Workouts shouldn’t be based on physiological variables.....they should be based on your race goals. Physiological variables will improve as a result, but are not the most important result. Time and place are the most important result

Alan

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So if I want to break 4 in the mile and I’ve run 4:30, I should base my workouts around that goal?

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Chickwen Egg argument wrote:

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Runningart2004 wrote:

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another runner wrote:

I know this is an older article and idea but I came across this while reading Steve's book and would like to hear some opinions on it. I think he does make a good point that improving VO2max doesn't change performance so why are we so focused on it. I think there are other benefits from these VO2max workouts but I don't think they are the benefits that coaches are trying to produce.

https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/08/do-we-need-vo2max-workouts.html?v=7516fd43adaa

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Workouts shouldn’t be based on physiological variables.....they should be based on your race goals. Physiological variables will improve as a result, but are not the most important result. Time and place are the most important result

Alan

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Time and place depend on improving physiological variables.

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