Why are there so few Kenyans and Moroccans in Masters ranking lists?

Coevett is a Deadbeat Dad wrote:

I'm your son. Stop neglecting me. I haven't seen you in days. All you do is run and hate people. Stop hating Kenyans. No one gives a cheap about running.

LMAO

I chatted with a Kenyan coach I had met at a marathon a few years ago. He told me that if a Kenyan sees that he can't break 2:10 for a marathon, he quits. I asked him if there were many runners my age running in Kenya. (I was 65 at the time.) He laughed and said maybe 1 out of 1,000 runners are my age. The unemployment rate in Kenya is 60% and when you can actually get work, the average wage is about $2/day. So, there is very little hobby jogging in Kenya, a country where survival is the #1 priority. Check out Toby Tansers books on Kenyan running for more details.

I don't personally know a single person who cares about masters.

that says more about your lack of knowledge, understanding and familiarity with your sport than it does about the popularity of Masters athletics.

cheers.

ex-runner wrote:

This thread is proof you've actually lost the plot. I always use my own handle, I don't need the backup. I'm not Dwain Chambers and masters running is as irrelevant to current elites doping as what you ate for breakfast.

Never said I doped. Please show everyone where I did.

I havn't often seen a person like Coevett so full of hate that it is not anymore possible for him just to act like a mature person. Add his hard to believe extreme low reading comprehension (he is 47!) and we have a very dangerous combination.

To put wrong words into someones mouth is an unbelievable bad behavior (to be honest, I can't know if he does something like this because of his hate/bad character or because of his very, very limited ability to understand).

Really, he now is trying to convince everybody that ex-runner and myself are some sort of "doping supporters". As far as I know, ex-runner has not written anything which supports this claim, and I definitely havn't done so. But for this stranger it is apparently something very bad when someone tries to stick to the truth (at least when this doesn't support his (mostly strange) theories). Or when someone only shows him that his argumentation also can be used easily to bring also his heroes under some suspicion.

I don't think just one person in this forum denies that east- and north African (and for sure not only their) running success is partly also based on PEDs. Looking especially at the Kenyan running history, it's just absurd to see this as the only reason for their success. They were extremely successful practically directly after reaching their independence.

Kip Keino in 1965 has run a 3000m-time which under current conditions probably is worth close to 7:30. And in his early years he (as far as I know) mainly was self-coached. This fact alone (!) is enough to realize that their success is definitely not solely the result of the use of PEDs.

That the "conditions" in Kenya to "produce" world class distance runners (how many might they have had so far? 3000?) are very special is so apparent that it's strange that someone can't (will not?) see this. I think it has also to do with genetics (nothing bad at this) and for sure with all the other factors which were named here very often. To reduce it solely on PEDs is a shame.

Poor OP is such a loser. He thinks this is evidence of EPO use. He lacks the ability to think logically.

Masters prize money is not worthwhile. For the NY marathon, it will not even cover the airline ticket from Nairobi to New York.

Most Kenyan runners go to their farms after they quit running. Even Kenyan runners who retired 30 years ago are still farming.

For them running was a way to earn living. They never ran for fun. Masters running is mostly pursued by people who like to run as a hobby. This rules out most Kenyans.

Poor OP is grasping at straws in his pathetic bid to impugn all Kenyans.

Ahhh, at last you admit that African success is at least partly due to ped use. Your unbending support for Aouita, however, shows you don't care in the slightest. It's all the same to you whether somebody is winning clean or dirty.

Ex-Runner stated his opinion that everybody dopes given the opportunity. He's claimed he's a former British 800m runner who has competed at the national championships. Today he claimed that I wasn't British on the basis that I didn't know that there was no testing at British Milers club events. Presumably, he has competed in those events. I know you don't have much reasoning ability, but that pretty much implies he took peds, unless he thinks he's near unique in not taking the opportunity to dope.

Kip Keino might have been 'self-coached', but he ran for Kenya which was organized as a team for Olympic and other competitions and had a manager. According to Charlie Francis, who knows a thing or two about doping, their entire Olympic team was doped in 68. I have no idea if this is true, but you can't know that Keino was 100% pure genetic superhuman rift valley talent because he was 'self-coached'.

Kip Keino likes to tell stories. Personally I don't believe the one about him missing the bus for the olympic final against Ryun and having to run 10 miles or something in order to (just) make it to the starting line (and then produces one of the most incredible performances in athletics history).

Rash-putin wrote:

You're really reaching now. No one gives a sh!+ about masters. I don't personally know a single person who cares about masters. Why not raise your kids and love your wife? Stop being a deadbeat, Coevett. Stop running fro. the authorities and pay your child support, you POS. Your kids will care if daddy talked to them, not what your 5k at age 50 was.

I don't know a single person who cares about athletics anymore, at least since Bolt retired.

Actually I don't have any children, but if I did and any of them wanted to pursue athletics, I'd do my best to dissuade them. I'd encourage them to go into any number of other sports, and if they still wanted to run, then they could run when they were older after age 40 in masters events. TBH, Masters athletics probably has more credibility and is of more real sporting merit than senior athletics these days. Anthony Whiteman probably gets more respect these days than he did when he was running 'in his prime', both inside and outside the athletics world. It's not because he's faster, but because his natural talent has been able to shine and prove itself without competition from doped up cheats.

All of them are age cheats. They were 33 when they were setting junior records.

Geesh, calm down Margret. You're triggered af.

Every now and then for a nanosecond you seem reasonable. You turn every topic into: black Africans cheat and whites from Great Britain are and were clean. When you have stated Ovett was clean, I never disagreed. Coe, with his suspicious 400m improvement from 56.xx at age 14 to 46.xx @ age 22 was as dirty as anyone. Little shits like Coe don't run 400m that fast cleanly. Your African point. Have you reviewed life expectancy in MAR and KEN? Rotation speed of earth near equator as stated by Bad Wigins may be a factor in speeding up mortality/morbidity of MAR and KEN. Genes which may enable MAR & KEN to be great do not negate other factors which may cause early mortality/morbidity for MAR & KEN. We were both on a thread regarding 80% age grade. I stated I am not above 80%. I didn't also state that I don't give a sh&t about how fast I can or cannot run anymore. I am certain if I cared to apply myself, I could be above 80% in one or more event(s), 200m to 3000m. To me, racing is depressing. I am sure others over age forty feel the same way about racing. What does one get for racing above 90% age grade? A forty plus year old runner races over 90% age grade, he/she still has to go to work at their day job the next day.

Coevett wrote:

At a minimum it shows Africans don't run for the love of the sport but simply for the money.

I get what you are saying but don't agree with it, but first a backstory.

Weldon had a US educated Kenyan living with him in Flagstaff. The guy simply didn't understand the concept of running for fun at age 45. Like he thought it was crazy.

If you've lived in Africa, you'd understand why. And don't tell me they are a lot different than people over here. No. Was there a lot of masters running during the George Washington era? No there was not. There was no professional sports in 1776.

It takes a decent amount of wealth to be into sports for run, whether it's attenidng a pro event or running for a couple hours yourself. In the US back in the day, most were worried about surviving, day to day living. It's similar today in Africa. Would you rather run for 90 minutes? Or do something to save people's lives? I'm serious. Even if you are rich. Let's say you are a lawyer making $200 an hour. Think about how far that $200 would go if you donated to a guy down the street in Africa.

Just because it's Said, I'll answer the 'Kip Keino was the first to demonstrate Kenyan genetic superiority' claim. (HUGE TRIGGER WARNING FOR SNOWFLAKES AND TRANSRACIAL SUBURBAN HOBBY JOGGERS IDENTIFYING AS KENYANS)

Kip Kenio's performance in 68 was one of the most fishy of all Kenyan victories. It's odd he continues to get a free pass from doping accusations here, despite crushing the American hero Jim Ryun.

First of all, contrary to what Said88 claimed, Kenio had a coach by the name of John Velzian, who was the national team coach and worked with Kenio regularly for two years in the build up to Mexico. He almost singlehandedly created athletes like Kenio and a few other Kenyan stars almost overnight. Interestingly, he was even claiming that Kenyans were genetically superior for distance running back in 1964. So basically, the myth, or legend (if you think it might be true) of Kenyan super endurance powers was started by the very same coach who trained Kenio and the first Kenyan runners to breakthrough.

Secondly, the Kenyans were in a mess when 68 came round. Led by Kenio, they sacked Velzian for 'being too white' and taking credit for their success. Their results in the lead up to Mexico were very poor, including Kenio's himself.

Thirdly, the performance of Kenio in Mexico. To begin with, he runs the 10000m and has to fall out with a couple of laps to go, in terrible pain. It turns out he has (according to which account you believe) gallstones, yellow fever, or hepatitis and has to go to the hospital. Despite this, he gets out of his hospital bed and enters the 5000m and wins silver, and by all accounts, would have won Gold if he hadn't set to fast an early pace. He returns to the hospital, but decides to challenge the unbeatable Ryun in the 1500m to claim that elusive Gold. On the day of the final, still suffering from gallstones or yellow fever or hepatitis, he climbs out of his hospital bed to catch the bus to the stadium, but misses it, so desperately has to run a number of miles to make it to the starting line in time, which he does...just. The rest is history.

According to one account on this forum, Ryun was so sure that Kenio was going to die at the pace he set off on, he decided to pursue him.

And none of this is suspicious.

*decided not to pursue him.

So you are reading these threads, Robert. And you do nothing about a certain poster's racist posts?

The following is a very...and I mean VERY interesting Sports Illustrated article published a week before the Mexico games. It even mentions Rudisha's dad and his mysterious drop in form.

https://www.si.com/vault/1968/09/30/610758/lost-laughter

Well I think when certain posters are threatening to kill other posters (and their hypothetical children) simply for exposing the obvious and monumental doping in Kenyan athletics, I think he has some obligation too, as well as making sure those ips are being recorded.

Coevett wrote:

First of all, contrary to what Said88 claimed, Kenio had a coach by the name of John Velzian, who was the national team coach and worked with Kenio regularly for two years in the build up to Mexico. He almost singlehandedly created athletes like Kenio and a few other Kenyan stars almost overnight. Interestingly, he was even claiming that Kenyans were genetically superior for distance running back in 1964. So basically, the myth, or legend (if you think it might be true) of Kenyan super endurance powers was started by the very same coach who trained Kenio and the first Kenyan runners to breakthrough.

That's what I have written : "And in his early years he (Keino) (as far as I know) mainly was self-coached".

So the claim of this unbelievable character again is wrong.

Coevett wrote:

Nips and tatties wrote:

So you are reading these threads, Robert. And you do nothing about a certain poster's racist posts?

Well I think when certain posters are threatening to kill other posters (and their hypothetical children) simply for exposing the obvious and monumental doping in Kenyan athletics, I think he has some obligation too, as well as making sure those ips are being recorded.

Please! Record the IPs!

I have never threatened you and you have threatened me twice.

Record the IPS!

I am not the one who has threatened you, I haven't threatened your children (which you don't have, as you said), and I am just sick of your anti-African posts.

Record the IPs. And do whatever you want with them. You have threatened me twice and it's all recorded.

If I may ask., please quote examples of people threatening to kill you/your hypothetical children. Have not been paying attention lately and would like to see evidence.