Ben Bruce tries out for Worlds at USA Mountain Champs - Ends up eating a big fat slice of "humble pie" as Joe Gray and Allie McL

I hope this experience makes the MUT haters back off just a tad. Well, besides the obvious trolls. Perhaps a 27 minute 10k guy would crush a race like Loon Mountain with minimal or no training, but I doubt it. Joe Gray is an exceptional athlete, primarly trains for steep races, yet can still run 28:18 for 10,000m, that's honestly pretty good.

I think guys like Ben can and will do well in future MUT races, but obviously they need to focus on specific training for a while.

Pretty sure that Joe would beat Ben in a track 10000m right now, too. This isn't exactly some monstrous validation.

No it isn't, my point is it requires a degree of talent and experience to win elite level mountain races. Joe needs no validation, he is practically unstoppable in the US.

Mtns are different wrote:

This happens nearly every year. A road/track star takes a shot at the US Mtn Championship and flops. Admittedly, many of the mountain running stars began on college track teams: Joe Gray, Hayden Hawks, Max King and more. It is okay to try new events and see if they suit you better. But mountain running is not the same as track or road racing. This race wasn't technical at all, just steep. It is an even bigger challenge to make the jump to trail racing with ups, downs, rocks and mud. Now we will see if Ben Bruce is serious about becoming a mountain runner, or if he just thought it would be easy to jump in and dominate. Will he get serious or give up?

Ben Bruce isn't a road/track star. I think everyone here can agree on that.

My response was directed to the thread topic as a whole. It isn't surprising to anyone that a track guy who would lose to someone with mountain running experience in his own arena would also lose to him in the mountain runner's arena, by a wider margin.

Six years ago they were pretty close. Remember the controversy in this finish?

http://hawaiiahe.com/bruce-and-gray-tie-for-title-at-xterra-trail-running-world-championships-smith-wins-womens-division/

lol more country club nonsense.

Any sub-2:25 thonner would crush these chumps.

A contrived race for those who can't handle XC. Weak.

Not too surprising

My one and only trail run I got beat by over a minute by guys I could beat by a minute in a road race

Btw the same thing happens when road bikers jump into a mountain race

There is technique involved and a physical adaptation as well

Phantasy Star wrote:

lol more country club nonsense.

Any sub-2:25 thonner would crush these chumps.

A contrived race for those who can't handle XC. Weak.

assuming you're trolling but isn't max king a ~2:15 guy? He just got beat by a local skier on Mount Marathon in Alaska. Skier actually has broken Kilian Jornet's course record so he's no joke (plus he went ALL the way to the top)

0/10

joecrunner wrote:

I hope this experience makes the MUT haters back off just a tad. Well, besides the obvious trolls. Perhaps a 27 minute 10k guy would crush a race like Loon Mountain with minimal or no training, but I doubt it. Joe Gray is an exceptional athlete, primarly trains for steep races, yet can still run 28:18 for 10,000m, that's honestly pretty good.

I think guys like Ben can and will do well in future MUT races, but obviously they need to focus on specific training for a while.

Settle down there Francis. Your exhaustively researched study with a sample size n =1 proves nothing. Your desire for external affirmation of your niche of a niche sport makes you an easy target.

What most of you guys don't get is that ultras, racewalking, and mountain running are ugly to watch. Even if they are smoking fast, they are doing 6:30 miles at best and what, with all the 14.XX 5k runners here with supermodel wives and $250k+ salaries, this is clearly recovery pace at best. Contrast that with beautiful and fluid 64-65s 400m pace in a diamond league track 10k or 4:40 miles being clipped off in a major marathon.

Sprinters, middle distance, and distance runners all evoke images of graceful animals and birds. Ultra-running is a test of survival. It is not graceful or pretty. It looks unhealthy and is a reminder of the base nature of our existence in the not too distant past.

It may be admirable and tough, but it is never going to be popular. It does not lend itself well to media coverage. Accept that and stop begging people to love your sport.

.38/10

Phantasy Star wrote:

lol more country club nonsense.

Any sub-2:25 thonner would crush these chumps.

A contrived race for those who can't handle XC. Weak.

Bruce is a 1:02 HM and 2:21 marathon, not an elite 26.2 time, but I believe this was one of his first attempts at the distance. He's still a very strong runner and is coming off injury this past year. I like that he switched it up, have to respect that. Makes the sport fun, quit looking at the sport in such a narrow lens. He knows he's getting older, maybe he switches it up more, I love it.

joecrunner wrote:

0/10

were you referring to my post?? no troll, look it up David Morris, a student at tiny Alaska Pacific University beat Max pretty handily this year and broke Jornet's course record back in 2016.

I tried to see how much he runs and his blog was all sking pics. I'm sure he must run as part of his training but still pretty surprising how good he is against the best mountain runners in the world.

especially considering that Mount Marathon is MUCH steeper and more technical than what they ran for the US Mnt. running champs.

us champs . 3,200 feet gain in ~6 miles

Mt. Marathon 3,000 feet gain in ~1.5 miles , then a CRAZY descent

hmmm...not really wrote:

Phantasy Star wrote:

lol more country club nonsense.

Any sub-2:25 thonner would crush these chumps.

A contrived race for those who can't handle XC. Weak.

Bruce is a 1:02 HM and 2:21 marathon, not an elite 26.2 time, but I believe this was one of his first attempts at the distance. He's still a very strong runner and is coming off injury this past year. I like that he switched it up, have to respect that. Makes the sport fun, quit looking at the sport in such a narrow lens. He knows he's getting older, maybe he switches it up more, I love it.

And 2nd place finisher Andy Wacker is a 2:17, 13:41 guy. But actually Gray has run in USTAF XC Champs several times and held his own pretty well against national caliber athletes. For example, in 2017 he beat Olympian Hilary Bor, 2:12 guy Tim Ritchie, Max King, Ryan Vail, among others.

I'm not really sure why people get so offended if others follow MUT events. Sure the talent pool is not as deep but they are different types of events that require different strengths. No one has to choose between following track, road racing and MUT. I follow and appreciate all of them for what they are - just as I enjoy watching local high school XC races.

Why does Joe only run the short stuff? I'd love to see him take on Jim or the CR at Speedgoat, 50 miles, or the European mountain marathon races. He's always flown under the radar and would get more notoriety if he went longer.

derp wrote:

joecrunner wrote:

0/10

were you referring to my post?? no troll, look it up David Morris, a student at tiny Alaska Pacific University beat Max pretty handily this year and broke Jornet's course record back in 2016.

I tried to see how much he runs and his blog was all sking pics. I'm sure he must run as part of his training but still pretty surprising how good he is against the best mountain runners in the world.

No, joecrunner was replying to Phantasy Star.

Morris is one of the top 3-4 distance skiers in the US. He was one of the favorites to make the Olympic team this past winter, but came up sick the week of Nationals. If he had been there, he definitely would have improved the US men's distance performances at the Olympics.

Alaska Pacific University's skiing program isn't a NCAA program, and not all members are students. They have the Elite team, which made up close to half the 2018 US Olympic team in cross country skiing (including Kikkan Randall, Olympic gold medalist), but also masters and juniors programs. Norris did NCAA skiing at Alaska Fairbanks and Montana State, and came back to join a powerhouse, mostly Alaska-grown team of guys at APU after college. He might be taking graduate level classes. (Kikkan Randall was on the 15+ year plan to get her bachelor's degree at APU while skiing pro).

The APU elite team probably trains 20-25 hours a week. The team skis on a local glacier for a week at a time several times over the summer. In Alaska, the mountain races have been dominated by top/Olympic level skiers for decades. Ski training is more specific to running uphill than normal running. Skiers do lots of uphill running and uphill bounding.

Here's a training article about Norris from a couple years ago:

Mountain running is way different than track and xc. Yes great to have measures of all out fitness on the track but the terrain is so much different at the foothills of a mountain compared to groomed xc courses First, each step is on uneven sometimes unstable ground. Plenty of rocks and tall grass to maneuver around and also venomous wildlife you need to watch out for. Second, ascending a mountain while running is a full body workout and your pace is not going to match the effort youre used to. Arms will be driving while legs will feel heavy. Third, youre forced to slow down or stop to lean, jump or even climb obstacles on the mountain.

You need good recovery as well because even practicing in this evironment 2-3 times per ten days is a lot. It is physically exhausting.