Caster Semenya has just destroyed her lifetime PB, without any rabbits. 1:54.25!!

ex-runner wrote:

Sino-Century1 wrote:

If you're so fond of "percentage-based advantage", than even the IAAF admits

"“This evidence shows clearly that (at least in certain events) DSD athletes with levels of circulating testosterone in the normal male range have a very significant competitive advantage over female athletes with testosterone levels in the normal female range.”

It also uses numbers to back up its case. As it notes: “In particular, increasing testosterone levels in women from 0.9 nmol/L to just 7.3 nmol/L increases muscle mass by 4% and muscle strength by 12-26%; while increasing it to 5, 7, 10 and 19 nmol/L respectively increases circulating haemoglobin by 6.5%, 7.8%, 8.9% and 11% respectively. Taking all available knowledge and data into account, the experts estimate that the ergogenic advantage in having circulating testosterone levels in the normal male range rather than in the normal female range is greater than 9%.”

According to your argument, does this mean that performance enhancing drugs should be completely allowed in sports as long as it only makes opponents a little bit better than their clean counterparts, instead of a whole lot better?　Although I'll give Semenya the benefit of the doubt that he's training as much as her opponents, the thought that posters like you would fully endorse her to not train to her full potential as to not make her "too good" as a basis for whether or not she can compete is a really stupid argument. We already have the numbers on what her testerone advantage is giving her, yet for the sake of your argument you completely ignore it to compare a much more complicated factor which includes much more unknowns like personal training vigor, strategic racing, and saving energy for races, and even the possibility she is sandbagging races to please idiots like you.

Thank you, that's a very informative post.

My point was much more simply that Semenya has not managed to demonstrate an advantage over the competition that is out of the ordinary in athletics. I genuinely feel that she tried hard on that 1:54.25. my point is the hysterical reaction to her performance is not warranted. Jelimo ran 1:54.01 people didn't really bat an eye.

Again, I've never said she doesn't have an unfair advantage. Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone. But the actual demonstrable advantage thus far is not as big as Dibaba's advantage.

Hill Run wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Thank you, that's a very informative post.

My point was much more simply that Semenya has not managed to demonstrate an advantage over the competition that is out of the ordinary in athletics. I genuinely feel that she tried hard on that 1:54.25. my point is the hysterical reaction to her performance is not warranted. Jelimo ran 1:54.01 people didn't really bat an eye.

Again, I've never said she doesn't have an unfair advantage. Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone. But the actual demonstrable advantage thus far is not as big as Dibaba's advantage.

"Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone." - I think this is the crux of the issue and the one which provokes the most discontent. With Ayana, Dibaba, Lasitskene etc who are clear and consistent female outliers, observers appreciate their performance is the result of talent and hard work within the constraints of normally occurring female biology and physiology.

With Semenya observers cannot appreciate the "talent" over and above her peers as they are not comparing apples with apples. Semenyas dominance is simply not the result of latent talent and development, she starts on such a higher plane than the others and therefore she cannot be held in the same high esteeem as lasitskenes unbroken run of victories, or Ayanas brave, gutsy front running 10k performances.

D3 Miler wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere has ex-runner argued in favor in favor of Semenya competing unregulated in the women's race, he's simply saying that her advantage on account of her intersex characteristic is on par with the talent/doping advantage that female outliers in other events have possessed. Which on the one hand doesn't really matter, because the fundamental question of fairness in Semenya's case doesn't change whether she runs 1:49 or 1:59. Either way she has a huge advantage over her competitors on account of sex. But he's absolutely right in saying that claiming she could run 1:49 is an emotional response that isn't based on any evidence. The top 800 runner on my college team ran 3:59 in the 1500 and regularly split 50 flat on the 4x4 (also ran low 25s in XC, which I don't think Semenya could do with her body type). Guess what his 800 PR was? 1:53.6. Anyone who's been around male runners at Semenya's level knows that her PRs make perfect sense lined up, and while I think she could get the WR on a perfect day, I have a very hard time seeing her dip under 1:53.

ex-runner wrote:

Hill Run wrote:

"Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone." - I think this is the crux of the issue and the one which provokes the most discontent. With Ayana, Dibaba, Lasitskene etc who are clear and consistent female outliers, observers appreciate their performance is the result of talent and hard work within the constraints of normally occurring female biology and physiology.

With Semenya observers cannot appreciate the "talent" over and above her peers as they are not comparing apples with apples. Semenyas dominance is simply not the result of latent talent and development, she starts on such a higher plane than the others and therefore she cannot be held in the same high esteeem as lasitskenes unbroken run of victories, or Ayanas brave, gutsy front running 10k performances.

Talent, hard work, and possibly dope. Dibaba's 3:50 is beyond what most consider to be clean. Semenya's 1:54 is not beyond in my opinion.

It's just interesting how perception affects the reality for many posters. I get called emotional, but I just use the numbers and facts whilst posters tell me she can run 1:49 or has a 10% advantage over the other women (which is 10 seconds).

This x 10,000 wrote:

Luxury800 wrote:

Caster has been sandbagging for years. Just does enough to win. The women’s 800 has been a joke since Caster showed up. CAS is spineless trying to be PC but we are talking about an unfair advantage that is allowing CS to take money from competitors whose testosterone is not elevated. No womb, undistended testicles is code for male. Grandstanding, flexing, brushing off the shoulders then running to hug competitors is rude and condescending as well.

Caster didn’t even go all out in this race. The whole situation is a disgrace. Caster identifies as a male in every aspect of caster’s life choices except running. Once Caster’s running career is over you will never see Caster again dressed as anything but a man and identifing as a man. Being a dickless male accurately discribes what Caster is doing to the sport. Caster should be ashamed, but likely is a sociopath. Taking advantage to make money in a way that anyone with self respect and morals would refuse to do.