My point was much more simply that Semenya has not managed to demonstrate an advantage over the competition that is out of the ordinary in athletics. I genuinely feel that she tried hard on that 1:54.25. my point is the hysterical reaction to her performance is not warranted. Jelimo ran 1:54.01 people didn't really bat an eye.
Again, I've never said she doesn't have an unfair advantage. Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone. But the actual demonstrable advantage thus far is not as big as Dibaba's advantage.
"Semenya might only be in the realm of elite because of her testosterone." - I think this is the crux of the issue and the one which provokes the most discontent. With Ayana, Dibaba, Lasitskene etc who are clear and consistent female outliers, observers appreciate their performance is the result of talent and hard work within the constraints of normally occurring female biology and physiology.
With Semenya observers cannot appreciate the "talent" over and above her peers as they are not comparing apples with apples. Semenyas dominance is simply not the result of latent talent and development, she starts on such a higher plane than the others and therefore she cannot be held in the same high esteeem as lasitskenes unbroken run of victories, or Ayanas brave, gutsy front running 10k performances.
Talent, hard work, and possibly dope. Dibaba's 3:50 is beyond what most consider to be clean. Semenya's 1:54 is not beyond in my opinion.
It's just interesting how perception affects the reality for many posters. I get called emotional, but I just use the numbers and facts whilst posters tell me she can run 1:49 or has a 10% advantage over the other women (which is 10 seconds).
My times for girls could be pretty good too wrote:
So it's okay to be a man and compete as a women, as long as I only train or am good enough to make me 1-2% better than women, and not to be as good as elite men. I don't see how this is a good argument. If you want to do "math" then just look at her testerone levels (15 times more than the average female) or testicle count (two more than the average female).
problem is Ex Runner is that on these boards you are dealing with two distinct and opposing factions. On one side you have those with the view that all outstanding performances are doped. On the other are those who attempt to rationalize outstanding performance. - neither of these camps are destined to ever establish common ground or swap sides.
Of course there is another group - of which I am one, that keeps an open mind to results, whilst also acknowledging doping exists. Of course this group is not as emotive as the others hence we lack profile and presence upon these boards.
I must say however that I feel the advancement of female distance events over the previous ten years - and especially the last five, has more to do with the emergence of East African women rising from under the patriarchal social and familial structures that have historically consigned them to relative obscurity - and therefore without the platform to develop themselves fully, rather than the rampant usage of EPO to cheat their way up.
Of course there are exceptions, the association of Dibaba with Jama Aden is very troubling - and I am in two minds with her. The fact that she represents the royal family of Ethiopian running leads me to think she has too much to lose by doping (loss of face, shame for the country and her sisters) but her association to Aden cannot be overlooked.
As for Ayana, the womens 10k has always been weak, and up to thirty years ago wasnt run at all, and when it was it was always run tactically. Sure the Chinese were doped in 1993. But do you really consider a doped Wang anywhere near the equal of Ayana? surely the differences are obvious for all to see.
So to me African women making large bounds is not shocking. What is sad is the inconsistency demonstrated by many with regard to doping accusation. It does seem that to speak English, be very active upon social media correlates to being "cleaner" than those who do not speak English and shun the limelight.
Using pseudonyms to post the same bad logic makes you look even more backward.
Pseudonyms ? And who pray tell am I supposed to “be” ?? If you believe me to be ex Runner posting under an alias then regretfully I must inform you you could not be further from the truth. I’m posting from Wellington New Zealand and I believe Ex runner resides in the United Kingdom.
My thoughts are my own and I never post under a different handle. - Although my wife concurs that I can be a moron, so at least that part of your accusation has merit.