Timothy Cheruiyot runs 3:29 FTW in Paris!!

I think this is correct. There is nothing special about Monaco's track surface or start lines. In 2010, the IAAF changed from the Golden League to the Diamond League . Monaco is the last 1500m competition before the final, and everyone who wants to be in the final is looking to score a few more points.

Star wrote:

The main reason you see fast times at Monaco is because it is always a deep field of the top runners and they all go for time at that race.

You don't see that in any other race.

I'll restate that I've said before there is clearly a doping problem in Kenya with regards to the fact that there have been 50+ incidents in the recent years.

However I believe that this is due to opportunity (lack of drug testing) rather than 'a cultural problem'. Statements like that are also why people call you racist.

I don't believe that all the top Kenyans are dirty and certainly not all the top Africans and it's preposterous to think the guys running under 3:30 today are dopers but the guys running under 3:30 in 1980 were clean. That theory is extremely unlikely and has a basis in racial bias (Africans cheat, we don't).

There are only two reasonable theories that put together the following facts, some of which you dismiss as irrelevant but are a big part of the puzzle:

Top Brits running 3:30 in the 80s

Top Kenyans running 3:30 today

No Brits running 3:30 today

The 'easy' answer is that all the Brits were doping, but now anti-doping today is too good here so they can't anymore but over in Kenya they can. I don't particularly like this theory.

Another theory is that Britain has fallen out of love with running; children eat awful food and play fortnite rather than exercising, it's much easier to go to uni and get a proper job Vs trying to make it as an elite athlete. Uni is a place full of distractions; drinking and the opposite sex, and moreso today than 30 years ago when far fewer went to uni. Meanwhile in Africa running presents an unbelievable opportunity for the talented and people eat well, live at altitude, lead active lives and have nothing to lose by going all in on running. There aren't too many top runners from Nairobi, they tend to come from more rural areas. The 1 percent of this talent pool who all train hard rises to the top and that's who we see on the world stage.

I suppose the final theory is an combination in that the above sentiment about running culture is true but you can add that in 1980s Britain it was easy to dope, as it is in Kenya today, so the broader talent coming from each nation is better in their respective time periods. Running culture + dope.

You can't separate 'opportunity to dope' with 'culture'. A culture where official iaaf drug testers can be bought off for the price of a cup of tea is a culture of typical Third World corruption that is very different to ours.

Then virtual signalling morons like you deliberately conflate this obvious fact with 'racism' and suggest I'm accusing Kenyans of having a doping problem on the basis of skin color.

Just devious moral cowards.

The fact is that before EPO Kenyans weren't even sniffing sub 3:30 times, and since the EPO free for all, it's very rare for them, and one of them just got busted. Kenyans don't seem to be able to produce a single world class athlete in any other sport than distance running, the one sport where a simple over the counter (in Kenya) drug can turn you from a good runner, into a world beater. And surprise, surprise, they have a non stop conveyor belt of elite distance runners dominating now even local races in America and Europe.

You can scream 'racist' alll you like, but with every further bust that's coming, you're going to look ever more ridiculous.

*since the EPO free for all ended, it's very rare for them.

I could add that Kiprop, that elegant running machine that was held up as why non-East Africans have inferior physiologies, appears to be unable to crack 3:34 even when microdosing EPO, something that would be superior to any drugs Coe, Cram, and Ovett had available to them.

Obviously you haven't addressed any of my points, but that's ok.

I'm not sure if you are actually English but watch the news some time and you'll see a fair bit of serious corruption going on here aha. All the way to the top, my friend. Humans are no different in any part of the world, all take selfish opportunities if they think they can get away with breaking the rules. Have you heard of a MP?

EPO and blood doping have the same effect. There's no difference between what you could do in Britain in the 80s and what you can do today in Kenya.

I've literally said there is a doping problem in Kenya so please stop pretending I think every Kenyan runner is clean.

You just can't have it both ways. Sub 3:30 by Brits are clean but sub 3:30 by Kenyans are all not clean. It's rubbish. Some of the 3:30 Kenyans will be dopers, for sure, but some will be clean, just like your beloved Coe and Ovett.

You are only able to taint them all with the same brush.

Also I'm just interested, people here, maybe you included, say that Farah for example is doping despite him being based in the UK or USA and under the arm of those two very capable anti-doping agencies.

Many British runners such as Grice, Butchart etc all spend significant periods training in Africa, but they don't get called dopers. I just want to know why.

Didn't see this post before but yes I agree with both of you in some way. All athletes take opportunities especially if they think they won't get caught. Coe is most certainly not the most honourable man today, and likely not before either.

However I'm willing to believe that the Brits were clean back then if we also say that some of the Kenyans today are clean. It's preposterous to say all the Brits were clean in an era of no drug testing but all the Kenyans today are dirty in an era of no drug testing.

ex-runner wrote:

Top Brits running 3:30 in the 80s

Top Kenyans running 3:30 today

No Brits running 3:30 today

The 'easy' answer is that all the Brits were doping, but now anti-doping today is too good here so they can't anymore but over in Kenya they can. I don't particularly like this theory.

Building on that, I'd say that doping now is more restricted than in the 80s, but athletes still dope. The restrictions now are tougher in the UK than in Kenya.

80s: literally all out doping (look at Ben Johnson for example, hard core steroid abuser for years until 88)

Now:

-somewhat restricted in Kenya (bribe testers, stay under ABP limits)

-more restricted in the UK (only micro-dosing, stay under ABP limits)

Neither top people are clean. Kenyans are faster now than the Brits of the 80s because of advancements of track and spikes and nutrition, and the larger talent pool, and the running culture etc. It's not that complicated.

As for British corruption: take a peak at the Edwards thread.

rekrunner wrote:

I think this is correct.

There is nothing special about Monaco's track surface or start lines.

In 2010, the IAAF changed from the Golden League to the Diamond League .

Monaco is the last 1500m competition before the final, and everyone who wants to be in the final is looking to score a few more points.

Star wrote:

The main reason you see fast times at Monaco is because it is always a deep field of the top runners and they all go for time at that race.

You don't see that in any other race.

Nick Willis was on here about three years ago to defend Monaco, mostly because all his best times are done there.

"A few points about Monaco.

1) It might be the fastest track in the world, but I doubt it has anything to do with the surface, but maybe to do with the base. The track is built on the 3rd floor of the facility. There is a swimming pool underneath it. To get to the track level, you have to walk up three flights of stairs to get to it (Feels very weird. You expect to come out above the track, not on it). This has always been like that though, so I don't give credit to a post 2010 conspiracy. Some say the Dempsy facility gives an extra spring because it is on docks?"

Surely you'd know this living in Monaco?

Nailed it. ,

It is the bounce ,

but why not translate into other events

If they gain 1 cm per stride then why not 800 , less strides but more force .

1.

So a surface that factors this in like

As mentioned that worlds track that bouncy and aided 400m record .

And schnippers fast 200 if remember.

Obviously at worlds some events run slower than norm, so no data to see.

Regardless get idea .

2.

And doubt athlete sensitive to this

Unless trains there with cones ,stride counter ext versus other track .

Somebody go count the strides per

Minute there for many athletes. Versus

Elsewhere . if that even possible .

3.

Sure many facets like how well doped

Or what dope available .

And if times consistently faster for years

To come , and factor in all .

Then no doubt. And is illegal if case .

Hmmm..it's no wonder you don't want to reveal who you are on this board. Certainly, all your results should be scrubbed and you should be banned from even attending events like the UK Championships as a spectator.

So...how is retirement treating you Dwaine?

There's different levels of corruption. You sound as though you don't know much about life outside of the UK, so I doubt if you ever competed at an international level.

British MPs are scum, like politicians everywhere. But what they've been accused and found guilty of in many cases is claiming expenses.

This is what goes on in Kenya every day. This was only in the news last week because it concerned a British man.

EPO and blood doping might have the same effect, but as Subway mentioned, unless you were living in Italy (hello Chaouita) with easy access to blood labs, it's unlikely you would be able to produce performances like the Brits did all year round.

So why did the Brits who came after the golden generation run slower when EPO was legal and untestable? Or were primitive 80s steroids better for milers than unlimited EPO?

I recently took up running at the age of 47. I have the modest aim of competing in regional masters events and being competitive by the time I'm 50. Obviously regional masters running is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, not to mention in terms of financial rewards, but it still wouldn't occur to me to take peds. It would just render the whole thing pointless to me. I'm sure there are many elite athletes who despite the glory and financial rewards on offer would still feel like it was cheating or faking it if they took peds, even if they felt many of their rivals were taking them. You can only speak for yourself and your own dubious moral character.

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Didn't see this post before but yes I agree with both of you in some way. All athletes take opportunities especially if they think they won't get caught. Coe is most certainly not the most honourable man today, and likely not before either.

However I'm willing to believe that the Brits were clean back then if we also say that some of the Kenyans today are clean. It's preposterous to say all the Brits were clean in an era of no drug testing but all the Kenyans today are dirty in an era of no drug testing.

Hmmm..it's no wonder you don't want to reveal who you are on this board. Certainly, all your results should be scrubbed and you should be banned from even attending events like the UK Championships as a spectator.

So...how is retirement treating you Dwaine?

You are embarrassing yourself mate.

This is how the MPs for Eldoret behave like :

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/2000223081/former-eldoret-south-mp-peris-simam-freed-after-month-in-jail-over-corruption

Kenya is ranked 139th out of 176 countries in the corruption league (with the least corrupt at the top of the rankings).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Kenya

How the control structure of track works will never fully comprehend .

But must see that has favourites and pushes certain athletes and events at

various times

1.

Decide testing , tests for older dope

Leaving loop hole's open for newer ones

Like androgen test for all chemicals that invoke such responds rather than only known ones. , same with epo test.

The Nike sauce , epo variant .

2.

Sticking with UK , roids , and that era .

All during apparent better. testing .

Male high hurdler. Doper no doubt.

Triple jumper. No doubt

100m. sprinter. No doubt

Javelin thrower. No doubt

Female javelin thrower. No doubt

Female. 400mh. No doubt

Amongst many others that not as successful. Relays and 400m

All steroids ,so many steps ahead

Or should I say controlers .

3.

They were still pushing various events

Just no longer middle distance as we

Know the general consensus was longer

Events would be pushed amongst first

Male east Africa /morrocans and all systems in place and still are .

And epo was definitely in UK at time

Roger in the 400m , never seen such

A big man drag himself over line ,

Epo perfect for that final 100m

And in other sprints too .

So why couldn't they find a galen at time

Many young athletes and only take a few years .

Fact being they weren't looking for one

As not part of push or narrative as mentioned that was elsewhere .

Off course some individuals outside system used epo ,largely female and Paula .

Off course epo not as effective in women so records don't stand time as well unlike steroids in women's middle

Steroids worked for them

4.

Shows again something couldn't control

Was doping in the east and not part of their plan .

so largely an anglo American system

Until recently .

Why pushed Jamaica while did and now

South Africa again in different events

Where can. All the empire .

Or maybe I am just imagining it

ex-runner wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Hmmm..it's no wonder you don't want to reveal who you are on this board. Certainly, all your results should be scrubbed and you should be banned from even attending events like the UK Championships as a spectator.

So...how is retirement treating you Dwaine?

You are embarrassing yourself mate.

Really? You claim to be an ex-runner who has competed at the national championships and you argue vehemently that all athletes will cheat to the max.

ex-runner wrote:

I'll restate that I've said before there is clearly a doping problem in Kenya with regards to the fact that there have been 50+ incidents in the recent years.

However I believe that this is due to opportunity (lack of drug testing) rather than 'a cultural problem'. Statements like that are also why people call you racist.

Doping problem vs doping culture? How would you define the two? Maybe it's only a problem right now in Kenya but, IMO, it's a "culture" in a place like Morocco where there's plenty of testing & ABP monitoring with ADAMS:

-38 positives since 03

-10 ABP sanctions (2nd to Russia's 50+)

-Olympic Gold medalist busted (Ramzi)

-WC medalist busted (Koauch)

-WR holder busted (Boulimi)

-Brothers busted (Mohammed & Hassan Mourhit)

-More siblings busted (Halima & Abdelkader Hachlaf)

And just recently another Spanish doping ring was broken up which contained an Ethiopian & Morrocan organization. Lol.

Morroco has had 5 guys go sub-3:30 since records have been kept; 2 guys have been confirmed positive (Ramzi & Laâlou). That leaves EL G, Aouita & Iguider. El G has got to be highly suspicious running those times and setting the WR in the EPO time frame where one could dope with impunity. Aouita has some suspicions as pointed out by Coevett & others here. Iguider has been their fastest guy in the ABP era (3:28.79). Though ran at Monoco, it's faster than confirmed dopers Ramzi & Laâlou. How could one not be suspicious that Iguider's time is doped? How could one not conclude that this not a doping culture? Has it gotten to the point where doping is the normal preparation for a Morrocan athlete?

Maybe Kenya is only a problem or maybe it is a culture, but certainly there are doping cultures out there independent of the country's running tradition.

And now pushing 400mh that stagnant

And Russian athlete in 110mh .

High jumper qatari again.

Chinese 100m sprinter .

Cuban long jumper.

200m sprinter from near east

Afew 400m sprinters in States

Finally got a Chinese bird under 11 sec

After nothing for years and did try

That is one powerful androgen

Or undetectable steroid .

Not just the speed peptide but all have

Made a androgenic jump .

Explain that with so called tests

All sprinters or speed based events

That pushing

As that is where dope is at moment

Built around the speed peptide

So the. Power. Structure is Slowly going

East and Marxist /fascist.

could the same be said of america

And American industry

No coincidence here. Imagination

If you think Britain doesn't have corruption going all the way to the top you must be the only man in Britain to think so. Do you NEVER read the papers? Or only the Kenyan news? Maybe you should start campaigning for the government, police or bankers or something.

Wherever there is opportunity in the world for gains to be ill-gotten they will be. In countries with lower economic status and therefore less controls in place of course corruption, and crime, will be higher. Also in situations where power exists, such as the aforementioned bunch.

I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove with your list of corruption (an ironic list because those best at corruption would most certainly appear to be the least corrupt) but if it's to prove that Kenyans dope whilst the British would never then that's just plain funny.

I've said Kenya clearly has a doping problem today that we need to tackle based on all their positive tests. This is due to a lack of infrastructure and a lack of testing. It is not because the human beings themselves are of lesser integrity than those in Great Britain. That would be a racist thing to say and we know you aren't.

You still can't tell me why Britain used to have 3:30 guys and doesn't come close anymore. If Kenya is doing it today with dope, how can you seriously say that Britain wasn't doing it with dope back when we had shitty drug testing also? Blood doping (transfusions) wasn't even illegal back then and it was widely known that all the top cyclists were doing it. Why not in athletics?