*there's really no reason
*there's really no reason
rekrunner wrote:
For that matter, we don't know how tainted times were in any year, except in rare cases annulled due to doping.
When I collected the times, very few were from 1988 and 1989, and they weren't significantly better than earlier times.
The big drop in times came much later, in the mid-90s.
In any case, we can do the same analysis using 1987 as the boundary, or 1985.
Would that address your problem of the hard and unnatural line of 1990?
With these earlier cutoff dates, all the numbers would be larger, but we would still see large gaps in quality and quantity between the groups.
Someone criticized me for including Aouita -- I can calculate 1990 without Aouita and very little would change in the results.
It is not my choice of 1990 that creates the large differences in quantity of quality performances.
Yep...that was kind of stupid to include a highly suspicious guy like Aouita in your presumably clean controls. He performances should be put in a separate category with the culture of doping Morrocans, and his times could be compared with that of his future comrades.
He posted the fastest times in 3 out of the 6 events you looked at (1500/3000/5000) and 4th fastest in 10,000. Have you recalculated all the times booting out Aouita and moving everyone up one spot and adding a new 5th time? I only did one, the 5, and the average went up from 13:02.08 to 13:03.6. Haven't have time to do the others to ascertain if there's more of change.
rekrunner wrote:
Where were you when I was called "clueless" when I agreed with you that Spain tried hard to dope with EPO?
All amazing performances to be sure, but it is far short of "replicating the success" of East and North Africans.
The game wasn't to beat the Spanish of the '80s, but to beat competitors from the rest of the world in the '90s and 2000s.
I do think the doping rings went to waste.
Going with the 5, Blood bag Bezabeh (12:57) & EPO-specialist Alberto Garcia (13:02.54) beat your top 5 average presumably clean control of 13:03.6. No bad for a country where most of the aerobic talent goes for cycling. ?
ex-runner wrote:
Spectacular leaps by letsrun morons as always.
I haven't posted on this thread for a few days and there's rest no rest for me to use another handle. Coevett is an idiot and I don't need multiple aliases to call him or anyone else out.
There are currently no major world events on? You think you can judge my entire lifes schedule based on the news? Can you in fact tell every human on earth what they will be doing tomorrow, based upon 'world events'.
It's actually insane that you and maybe a few others have decided that you can work out my whole life based on some of my posts on this running website.
There's an old saying, when in a hole, STOP DIGGING.
Doped to the Max wrote:
Going with the 5, Blood bag Bezabeh (12:57) & EPO-specialist Alberto Garcia (13:02.54) beat your top 5 average presumably clean control of 13:03.6. No bad for a country where most of the aerobic talent goes for cycling. ?
I thought that you typed Blood bag Beelzebub ☜??
Think This One Through wrote:
The fastest 3 Kenyans I could find pre-90s are:
1. Benjamin Jipcho, 3:33.16
2. Mike Boit, 3:33.67
3. Kipkoech Cheruiyot, 3:34.44
1. Wilfred Kiroch 3:32.57
2. Kipkoech Cheruiyot 3:33.07
3. Ben Jipcho 3:33.16
4. Mike Boit 3:33.67
5. Joseph Chesire 3:34.32
rekrunner wrote:
The big drop in times came much later, in the mid-90s.
But every year from 1991 times dropped on the previous years unreal performances. As you said OOC testing for epo came standard in 2002, so many of the epo cheaters switched to the roads, and down came the marathon record.
What a terrible recovery wrote:
ex-runner wrote:
Spectacular leaps by letsrun morons as always.
I haven't posted on this thread for a few days and there's rest no rest for me to use another handle. Coevett is an idiot and I don't need multiple aliases to call him or anyone else out.
There are currently no major world events on? You think you can judge my entire lifes schedule based on the news? Can you in fact tell every human on earth what they will be doing tomorrow, based upon 'world events'.
It's actually insane that you and maybe a few others have decided that you can work out my whole life based on some of my posts on this running website.
There's an old saying, when in a hole, STOP DIGGING.
I've nothing to recover from, you're an idiot. I can go to bed at 2:30am if I want to. I don't have work early in the day.
O.K., so it's racist to deny that Africans have a physiological advantage over Europeans, and it's racist to believe that Europeans have a physiological advantage over Africans. Got it.
ex-runner wrote:
If you believe Coe, Cram and Jakob Ingerbrigtsen have shown that it's possible to do these unbelievable tests whilst clean then it's by definition possible for the Africans also.
Your logic is hopeless.
Yes it's possible if we assume that the males of all nations have equal ability (presumably you don't think it's possible that a woman could run under 3:30?). But it's more than possible that such performances from kenyans are doped in the light of Kiprop's bust, the team manager's bust, 3 other kenyan born olympic champions being busted, 61 Kenyan athletes being busted etc etc etc.
After that post I'm genuinely not sure if you can read...
Nowhere does it say that Africans are genetically superior to Europeans, nowhere does it say anything about racism.
It simply says that if a white boy called Sebastian ran 3:29 clean in the 1980s then a black boy called Cheryuoit could run 3:29 clean in 2018.
Of course an African can run the same times as a European, there is no reason why he couldn't. And of course a European can run the same times as an African.
There is no explanation to suggest otherwise. If Cram was clean then Farah could be clean and Cheryuoit could be clean and Makhloufi could be clean and Kwemoi could be clean.
To put it another way. Let's assume that Kenyans are no more or less talented at any sport than Europeans and others are.
So why do they totally dominate distance running and are useless at every other sport? Why they ranked 100th or something at football, when even the doping apologists like El K here claim that football is way more popular than track, and when we know there is a very large crossover in talent in the rest of the world between football and especially 800m running.
And don't fire back with the noble savage 'Kenyans are all poor and running is all they can do' rubbish. Last time I checked Kenya has a higher GDP than the Ukraine. And if Kenyans had any talent at all for football you could be sure that it wouldn't be Italian and Irish coaches hanging around school gates, it would be thousands of talent scouts from the likes of Barcelona and Chelsea eager to sign up 12 year olds and put them on $xxx,xxx contracts.
No, it's you who can't read or grasp arguments.
If a white guy called Seb could run 3:29 then yes it's possible that a black Kenyan guy called Tim could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible that a Chinese yellow guy called Wang could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible an AfroAmerican called Leroy could run 3:29 clean.
It's also possible that a Black Kenyan called Asbel could run 3;29 clean, but it doesn't mean it happened.
My argument isn't based on white people being superior to Kenyans. It's based on the number of busts, the corruption and doping culture, the lack of testing standards and the easily available EPO etc.
said88 wrote:
Think This One Through wrote:
The fastest 3 Kenyans I could find pre-90s are:
1. Benjamin Jipcho, 3:33.16
2. Mike Boit, 3:33.67
3. Kipkoech Cheruiyot, 3:34.44
1. Wilfred Kiroch 3:32.57
2. Kipkoech Cheruiyot 3:33.07
3. Ben Jipcho 3:33.16
4. Mike Boit 3:33.67
5. Joseph Chesire 3:34.32
Interestingly, Kiroch ran that time in 1989. What's weird about this is that fastest Kenyan in the 80s could only go a pedestrian 3:32.57 while two guys from GB; Cram & Coe go a sizzling 3:29.67 & 3:29.77, respectively, and a third guy from GB, Ovett, almost breaks 3:30 going 3:30.77. If you were to line up Kiroch, Cram & Coe in a race, Kiroch gets beat by 3 seconds...enormous in a 1500! I can only see only two possible scarnios here (unless someone has more possibilities):
1. Coe & company are clean as well as Kiroch & company. For whatever reasons, 3 guys from GB are far superior in talent to the Kenyans who just aren't very fast in that time period.
2. Coe & company are using PEDs and the Kenyans are not, therefore the disparity in times.
I honestly don't have a good feel on this either way, as I don't have a dog in this fight. But lets presume #1, i.e. Coe & co are clean...anyone have any theories why the Kenyans ran slow compared to the 3 Brits?
Of course doping has an effect on some of the top elite there. But running is popular despite what you may believe from El K. That is how you get depth. Nothing would make the UK have a similar number of people trying to become top runners. Nothing. The money isn't worth it and the lifestyle is difficult. No kid doing an internship with JP Morgan gazes out the window and wishes he could make half as much by training intensely 14+ times a week, never going out with friends, watching his diet, no alcohol, going to bed early etc.
In certain areas, where there are many skinny people eating good food, living outdoors and at altitude, running is popular and if you go to Iten you can see hundreds of runners in big groups all trying to make it. It's low risk, if they fail they will just go and do whatever their parents do either way.
GDP is not a measure of wealth distribution. As far as I know there are not many top runners from city areas like Nairobi. There are better prospects there.
At the average athletics club in the UK you might get 10 boys running middle distance of which 8 will quit by 18. People focus on going to university and getting ordinary desk jobs that are way more secure and pay better. You can't even deny this because I personally know many good runners who gave it up before 21 because of university and job placements or good job offers. Really talented guys and girls.
I've already answered this: "We have to look at other things like inherent talent and high motivation and organized training and high altitude and low bodyweight." I understand the performance statistic just fine. From performance statistics, we can make performance conclusions, not doping conclusions. Before 1989, Kenya was "not training hard enough back then", for the 1500m on the track.
Coevett wrote:
No, it's you who can't read or grasp arguments.
If a white guy called Seb could run 3:29 then yes it's possible that a black Kenyan guy called Tim could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible that a Chinese yellow guy called Wang could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible an AfroAmerican called Leroy could run 3:29 clean.
It's also possible that a Black Kenyan called Asbel could run 3;29 clean, but it doesn't mean it happened.
My argument isn't based on white people being superior to Kenyans. It's based on the number of busts, the corruption and doping culture, the lack of testing standards and the easily available EPO etc.
Ex runner replied for nipp(le)s and tits at 2:20 AM, just ignore him. He's like a kitten chasing his tail.
The ball is still in your court. It's your burden to show: 1) Kim McDonald and the Rosas "pumped them full of epo and hgh/roids" 2) That that would explain the performance difference Can you show these things with more than words?
Now That's Telling It Like It Is wrote:
And the "oh they weren't training properly back then" excuse doesn't fly, Jipcho was at one stage the world's 3rd fastest over 1500m, WR over 3000m SC, like 2nd/3rd fastest over 5,000m. Boit was like the 2nd fastest ever over 800m. Their training was equal to the rest of the world in the 1960s-early1990s. And Cheruiyot, obviously "grew potatoes." So what changed? Kim McDonald and the Rosas etc pumped them full of epo and hgh/roids.
Yep...and that's the part Mr. Rekrunner is oblivious to.[/quote]
What a terrible recovery wrote:
Coevett wrote:
No, it's you who can't read or grasp arguments.
If a white guy called Seb could run 3:29 then yes it's possible that a black Kenyan guy called Tim could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible that a Chinese yellow guy called Wang could run 3:29 clean. It's also possible an AfroAmerican called Leroy could run 3:29 clean.
It's also possible that a Black Kenyan called Asbel could run 3;29 clean, but it doesn't mean it happened.
My argument isn't based on white people being superior to Kenyans. It's based on the number of busts, the corruption and doping culture, the lack of testing standards and the easily available EPO etc.
Ex runner replied for nipp(le)s and tits at 2:20 AM, just ignore him. He's like a kitten chasing his tail.
Well it says on Letsrun that I also posted at 4:30am Eastern (?) and right now it's 5:30am. So that would be even more strange would it not?
The reality is I went to bed at 2:30am and got up at 10am GMT, here in London. Just ask the mods.
I really don't see how you can try and push the argument that you don't think I'm British and therefore my points about Kenyan doping are invalid. Why don't you just stop posting?
I don't want to go in the arena for fighting with people already thinking all what they "suppose" it's true.
But when you go with some name, you don't know anything about his history, and you want to use in opposite way his results, I need to say you some anecdote.
Wilfred Kirochi (not Kiroch) won for two times the World Junior Champs in both 1500m on track and in Cross Country.
In 1989, he was with an Italian Team (PAF), the same of Gelindo Bordin and Francesco Panetta, and could compete in the Italian Club Championships of Cross Country (PAF was the Club champion of Italy for cross country and road races).
One day, the plan of the group (written by Luciano Gigliotti, Bordin's coach) was 30 km at 3'20" pace (final time 1h40') on tarmac. There were Gelindo, Panetta, Loris Pimazzoni (28' in 10000m) and Salvatore Bettiol (2nd in NY marathon). The assistant coach of Gigliotti, who was not there, put Kirochi too in the group. Kirochi was very lazy, and never ran longer than 1 hour in Kenya. The 30 km were on the road, 15 km in one direction, and after turning the same road coming back.
At 15 km, Kirochi was about 2 minutes behind the leaders, together with 3 Italian juniors of medium level, and, when he met Gelindo and Panetta already coming back, they started to kid with him. So, they stimulated the "pride" of Wilfred, and he started to run fast coming back, reaching the other after 26 km, and arriving almost 1 minute before them, running the last 4 km at 2'55" pace.
That year, he won bronze medal in World Cross Country (12 km) in Stavanger, in the most muddy conditions ever (Ngugi was the winner, and Tim Hutchings won silver).
After Stavanger, Wilfred went Kenya, and in all April didn't move one step running. At that time, Kenyan didn't have idea about CONTINUITY in training, and had very long periods of total rest, starting again from a very low personal shape.
At the beginning of May, Wilfred came Italy, in Tirrenia (our National Center). Gigliotti went Tirrenia 3 days after myself, and when arrived asked me : "Did you see Wilfred ?", and I answered "He's not here, I never saw him". When we went to the responsible of the Center for the accommodation of Gigliotti, we saw, in the book of the presences, in one room, the name of Wilfred Kirochi, arrived 3 days before. In 3 days, he never trained, and spend 18 hours per day sleeping.
We went in his room, and Gigliotti started to negotiate his training, starting from something long and aerobic : 1 hour moderate ("No, it's to boring"), or 10 times 1000m on track at easy pace ("No, is too time I don't run for doing so many km"), and other options. At the end, the final choice was... 3 times 200m fast on track with spikes, like introduction to the real program starting the next day. Kirochi ran 3 times UNDER 22", and we almost didn't believe in what we saw.
One week later, Kirochi won 800m in Formia meeting, running 1'45"30.....
This is talent, but nobody can recognize it, if never had the opportunity to see with his own eyes.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2017 World 800 champ Pierre-Ambroise Bosse banned 1 year for whereabouts failures