Timothy Cheruiyot runs 3:29 FTW in Paris!!

Observantte wrote:

By the way Kenya has literally hundreds of world class runners each year. Every event from the 800m to the road races has at least 7-10 Kenyans in the top 20. This means only a very small percentage of Kenyans are being busted.

The top two 800m runners this year are Kenyans based in the US so they are exposed to the same testing regime as Americans and they still perform well. That in itself shoots down your thesis.

Ha ha ha,? this is comedy gold, too funny, the GDR had more anti-doping infrastructure than the NCAA (No Clean Athletes Allowed). The two 800m runners you mention are perhaps the two most suspicious male athletes across all of t&f.

You're talking Coe vs Aouita rekrunner...I see a big difference here. You have reasonable suspicion with someone like Aouita based on those statements he made to some of the athletes he was coaching; reference the link Coevett posted. You simply don't have anything like that with Coe.

Secondly, there are countries with a demonstrated doping culture. For example Russia with their state sponsored doping programs is a no brainer, Spain with their number of positives & doping rings (4 in the last 10 years!), and Morroco for reasons I've pointed out many times here before (e.g. high number of drug positives/ABP sanctions, ties to doping rings, family members involved with doping, etc.)

rekrunner wrote:

For many of the same reasons, it is also a bad argument for Aouita.

Didn't Aouita live permanently in Italy? Seriously, just asking.

I'm not talking "Coe vs. Aouita", but "Coevett vs. ex-runner". Despite my showing why this missed the point, oddly you continue to build on the argument that missed the point. I'll take your bringing up new arguments (or rehashing old arguments) as an agreement that you also think "training in Italy, with easy access to blood labs" is a weak argument that could be applied to Coe as well as Aouita.

Lets Think This One Through wrote:

You're talking Coe vs Aouita rekrunner...I see a big difference here. You have reasonable suspicion with someone like Aouita based on those statements he made to some of the athletes he was coaching; reference the link Coevett posted. You simply don't have anything like that with Coe.

Secondly, there are countries with a demonstrated doping culture. For example Russia with their state sponsored doping programs is a no brainer, Spain with their number of positives & doping rings (4 in the last 10 years!), and Morroco for reasons I've pointed out many times here before (e.g. high number of drug positives/ABP sanctions, ties to doping rings, family members involved with doping, etc.)

I don't know.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

For many of the same reasons, it is also a bad argument for Aouita.

Didn't Aouita live permanently in Italy? Seriously, just asking.

Correct. Only guy that understands my point.

These weak arguments can be turned on anyone. Aouita may have doped but living in Italy is irrelevant. Coe also visited Italy (when it takes 1 day to transfuse blood) and that's not evidence of him doping either.

Farah goes to Ethiopia for 4-6 weeks or so. Coe lived in Italy before Moscow from December 1979 to April 1980. He visited Italy for a few training periods of a few weeks thereafter. Neither of these facts are evidence of doping.

Tim Cheryuoit returning home to plant potatoes is not evidence of doping.

All the UKA athletes going to Iten, not Switzerland like Coevett lied, is not evidence of them going to dope there.

Every point I made is AS VALID as Coevetts. Yet he and many on these boards believe these small details like someone going to some country or pulling out of a race are absolute gold finds that confirm the athlete as a doper beyond reasonable doubt.

When in reality, they don't even border on coincidence, they are simply irrelevant.

It's practically impossible to determine which athletes are doping, if you are objective about it. If you are prejudiced then you think certain things or see facts as evidence of certain things.

I chose to do so with Coe and despite Deano slightly losing the plot over it, many of his points were good and valid. Coevett still didn't see the similarities to what Deano was doing to defend Coe for going to Italy as I have done to defend Cheryuoit for going home mid season or Farah for going to Iten or Ethiopia.

ex-runner wrote:

1.Coe also visited Italy (when it takes 1 day to transfuse blood) and that's not evidence of him doping either.

2.Farah goes to Ethiopia for 4-6 weeks or so.

3.I have done to defend Cheryuoit for going home mid season or Farah for going to Iten or Ethiopia.

1. I've been doing my homework and it is more than just the "blood bags in the fridge" as I like to call it ?, "In autologous transfusion, 1 to 4 units (450–1800 ml) of blood are withdrawn then centrifuged. The plasma components are immediately reinfused while the packed RBCs are placed in cold storage. This involves removing blood 8–12 weeks before the event, as it takes this long for the body to re-establish RBC mass to the levels that existed before withdrawal. The withdrawn blood is then stored for reinfusion one to four days before competition."

The real question is how long the gains from a transfusion last? This is key.

2. I think everybody on here is suspicious of this.

3. I think everybody on here is suspicious of this.

That's definitely not correct...!

So you ARE defending Aouita.

Subway Surfers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

For many of the same reasons, it is also a bad argument for Aouita.

Didn't Aouita live permanently in Italy? Seriously, just asking.

Don't expect Afrocan doping apologists here to trouble themselves with subtle distinctions such ad LIVING and VISITING Italy.

Yes Aouita lived in Italy and he transformed his results immediately he made the move. He wintered in the USA, where the new HGH had just become available, and 20 years later he was urging his Australian athlete's to go there to get hold of it.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Observantte wrote:

By the way Kenya has literally hundreds of world class runners each year. Every event from the 800m to the road races has at least 7-10 Kenyans in the top 20. This means only a very small percentage of Kenyans are being busted.

The top two 800m runners this year are Kenyans based in the US so they are exposed to the same testing regime as Americans and they still perform well. That in itself shoots down your thesis.

Ha ha ha,? this is comedy gold, too funny, the GDR had more anti-doping infrastructure than the NCAA (No Clean Athletes Allowed). The two 800m runners you mention are perhaps the two most suspicious male athletes across all of t&f.

Man...too funny; NCAA = No Clean Athletes Allowed. ?

Huh? Here is part of what you quoted: "This is not ... an attempted defense of Aouita, ..." And somehow you concluded the opposite?

Coevett wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

So you ARE defending Aouita.[/quote]

rekrunner wrote:

Huh? Here is part of what you quoted: "This is not ... an attempted defense of Aouita, ..."

And somehow you concluded the opposite?

Coevett wrote:

So you ARE defending Aouita.

[/quote]

It doesn't matter if you include the disclaimer 'this is not an attempted defence of Aouita'. Aouita moved full time to Italy in the winter of 82/83 and transformed himself almost overnight (already in his early twenties) from a B level European circuit runner into one of the greatest athletes who ever lived. This is highly suspicious, especially given that Italian doctors weren't apparently enough for him and that he also had a Belgian doctor who was later busted for supplying peds to numerous athletes. Oh, and telling athletes in Australia to take peds. Ex-Runner is claiming that this is faulty logic or I'd have to accuse Coe of doping for spending some weeks training in Italy in the winter of 1979/80 when he had already smashed four world records.

He is defending Aouita.

Then how did you get yourself in this mess with Coevett? Early in the thread most of us were debating Cheryouit & Kenyan doping, and the percentage/time improvement with EPO use involving elites. And with the exception of our esteemed statiscian rekrunner, we all agree EPO is effective with athletes...so, we have some common ground there. But somewhere along the line Coe gets dragged into this and you now have the wrath of Coevett on you.

aduck2022 wrote:

blood doping might have been acknowledged by then

but years from testing for it .

do you think they are going to put stop to whole middle distance project in britain

when only half way through it .

what do you think doing in italy in first place and promoting there sportswear

learning the ropes of blood doping .

It must be really depressing being you; as you seem to claim every athlete in every event in the history of the sport must have used peds! I would love to know which, if any!? athletes have ever been clean?

Due to your cynicism, you tend to make lots of sweeping generalisations that just don't stand up on closer scrutiny.

Now, I don't mean to offend, but your style of writing is very unusual and I often find it hard to fully grasp what you are actually saying, so if my comprehension of what I think you're suggesting above is wrong, then please explain more clearly....

Coe only started promoting Italian sportswear, Diadora, after the LA Olympics in late 84/early 85. You seem to be implying that this was so that he could justify (not arouse suspicion) visiting Italy often, in order to "learn the ropes of blood doping" from the Italians!? Is this what you are saying? If so, then it clearly shows blood doping doesn't work, as Coe's career was on the decline from 85, apart from a great 86 season. That would also imply that all the World records and Olympic medals he achieved happened before he went to Italy to learn how to blood dope!

The idea that there was some kind of "whole middle distance (blood doping) project in britain" in the 80's is laughable. I cannot imagine for 1 second that some Doctor somewhere was calling in Ovett from Brighton, Coe from Sheffield and Cram from Sunderland to carry out and educate the mechanics and benefits of having their blood extracted and re-infused. Do you think they sat together in a waiting room and compared notes?

Coe was instrumental in not only getting blood doping banned in 85, but also (in his role as Chairman of the British Sports Council) in calling for random out of competition testing in UK athletics and other sports. This was introduced in 86. Now, while of course all athletes, whether they have doped or not, are going to be vocal about the evil of drug use and how cheats should be banned, it is a different level altogether to actively lobby and push forward reforms that would make cheating more difficult. Why would he do this in the middle of his athletic career, knowing he wanted to go into mainstream politics, if he himself was doping! Not only would it represent a drop in performance to his detriment, but the risks of being caught and the fallout would just be too monumental and end any intentions of going into politics. Had there been some kind of national doping programme in the UK involving 3 of the most famous sports stars in the world at the time, then you can be assured someone would have gone to the papers in the 30 + years since and made an absolute fortune.

It would be sporting and political suicide for Coe to have done what he did and been a doper.

I get what you are saying, and I can see an element of that in ex-runner's comments, but he was still being purposely provocative and not being clear (or entirely accurate) in the points he implied as facts. I was just trying to redress the balance and point out his ambiguous choice of language. I have already stated that the relationship between Coe and Italy was not the same as Aouita's connection with Italy. I also made it clear that I was not passing judgement on Aouita.

Yes, I also feel that some go too far with sweeping generalisations about Africans. But, the FACTS are these:

-UK athletes have been subject to random OOC testing by their federation since 1986;

-Kenyan athletes were subject to no OOC testing by their national federation until last season;

-Moroccan athletes were not subject to OOC testing by their federation for decades after the Brits were;

-Elite UK athletes were subjected to random OOC testing by the IAAF from 1989;

-Elite Kenyan athletes were meant to be subjected to random OOC testing by the IAAF from 1989, but it would appear that this wasn't being implemented to the same extent as in most other nations. Retrospectively there has been a long list of excuses as to why they weren't: couldn't find them because they were training in remote places; it would take too long to get samples back to European labs for tests as the sample would have denegraded; the athletes were tipped off by corrupt officials; etc;

- Despite far less testing over past 30+ years, dozens of elite Moroccan middle distance athletes have tested positive for banned substances or have had suspect ABP levels;

- Despite far less testing over past 30+ years, dozens of elite Kenyan middle and distance athletes have been caught using EPO in last couple of years since they were forced to tow the line and introduce more robust testing;

-Despite being tested far more frequently, the UK have had very few middle or distance athletes banned since 1986. I am sure there must have been some, but at this moment I can only think of one UK athlete, Diane Modahl, who was banned for ped use.

With those FACTS in mind, there is quite a lot of ammunition for those who rightly claim that African athletes have been in the luxurious position of being far more likely to dope and get away with it than UK athletes since 1986. To my mind, and I have stated this elsewhere, I do not believe all current Kenyan athletes dope, but the percentage that have, I am sure is higher than UK or most other countries. This is down to pure common sense, logic and probability using the climate that was in place. If the positions had been reversed, then it would be normal for observers to claim the opposite. For me, it is nothing to do with culture or nationality, but historical context, evidence and statistics. I have had my suspicions about dozens of athletes in the past 30 years, just by looking at their progression charts and the splits they produce in races.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Observantte wrote:

By the way Kenya has literally hundreds of world class runners each year. Every event from the 800m to the road races has at least 7-10 Kenyans in the top 20. This means only a very small percentage of Kenyans are being busted.

The top two 800m runners this year are Kenyans based in the US so they are exposed to the same testing regime as Americans and they still perform well. That in itself shoots down your thesis.

Ha ha ha,? this is comedy gold, too funny, the GDR had more anti-doping infrastructure than the NCAA (No Clean Athletes Allowed). The two 800m runners you mention are perhaps the two most suspicious male athletes across all of t&f.

One of them is running in the Diamond League not in the NCAA. So if he is cheating and getting away with it then so are all America pro runners.

I see how he attacked your "faulty logic", and his "absurd" attacks on Coe, but I don't find back where he said anything that could be interpreted as a defending Aouita. Maybe it would just be quicker if you quoted that part you are calling a "defense" for me.

Coevett wrote:

It doesn't matter if you include the disclaimer 'this is not an attempted defence of Aouita'. Aouita moved full time to Italy in the winter of 82/83 and transformed himself almost overnight (already in his early twenties) from a B level European circuit runner into one of the greatest athletes who ever lived. This is highly suspicious, especially given that Italian doctors weren't apparently enough for him and that he also had a Belgian doctor who was later busted for supplying peds to numerous athletes. Oh, and telling athletes in Australia to take peds. Ex-Runner is claiming that this is faulty logic or I'd have to accuse Coe of doping for spending some weeks training in Italy in the winter of 1979/80 when he had already smashed four world records.

He is defending Aouita.

Congrats