Ah ok fair enough I misunderstood.
Cram was significantly better than Coe at the mile in my opinion however. I couldn't possibly say if that was down to his height. Probably more down to his endurance.
Ah ok fair enough I misunderstood.
Cram was significantly better than Coe at the mile in my opinion however. I couldn't possibly say if that was down to his height. Probably more down to his endurance.
Weird post...is that you rekrunner?
NEARLY EVERYONE AT THE TOP OF SPORT USES DRUGS TO ENHANCE THEIR PERFORMANCE. There is too much money on the line not to. C'mon guys. Wake up already.
rojo wrote:
Check out what I'm putting up as QOD:
Asbel Kiprop says:
"I called my manager (Federico Rosa) the whole of last week and he did not pick my call."
Poor Kiprop. He has all the bad luck: first, $32 wasn't enough for tea, and then Rosa wasn't home when he tried to call him. Now there's nothing he can do.
And just like that, he will get banned without ever having done anything wrong.
Truth bombz wrote:
NEARLY EVERYONE AT THE TOP OF SPORT USES DRUGS TO ENHANCE THEIR PERFORMANCE. There is too much money on the line not to. C'mon guys. Wake up already.
Well then, if this is true we should all quit watching and the youngsters shouldn't idolize these athletes anymore.
casual obsever wrote:
rojo wrote:
Check out what I'm putting up as QOD:
Poor Kiprop. He has all the bad luck: first, $32 wasn't enough for tea, and then Rosa wasn't home when he tried to call him. Now there's nothing he can do.
And just like that, he will get banned without ever having done anything wrong.
Looks like Rosa Inc has decided Kiprop is a leper. The problem being Kiprop is a risk to their entire filthy operation, once he goes through the stages of grief he will start to speak and that's what they don't want.
It is good, and only fair, that there are still many Asbel Kiprop supporters, including a sizeable number of elite Kenyans, and presumably foreigners.
The pencil thin, always immaculately attired Kiprop, maintains his innocence to the end.
Unfortunately, it looks like the former God fearing alter boy from Kaptinga village, near Eldoret, has been made a scapegoat, sacrificial lamb.
Had he and his legal team used his funds for defence, and proof of no wrong doing, there were no guarantees, and he risked losing everything.
For the doubters, not saying that Asbel is innocent, but at the same time, there are too many holes in the prosecution, to prove, beyond irrefutable doubt, that he is guilty of overt doping. In any other locale, he would have gotten off on 'technicality'
This has been the most unfortunate case of doping, ever in Kenya, and has resulted in untold damage to the reputation of Kenyan runners, in general, who according to well conducted studies by Canova et al., show little or no benefit for EPO supplementation to those particular athletes.
Here's my take wrote:
Look at Cram's PB of 3:29.67 & Sydney Maree's 3:29.77 both set in the 80s. There's no evidence of that these times were not achieved clean (e.g., no positives, no scandals, no ties to doping coaches/doctors, no doping cultures, etc.). Times in the low 3:29s and certainly sub-3:29 start to look very suspicious with these being run by athletes from nations with a strong doping cultures, nations with EPO positives galore (e.g., Morroco) and nations with scandals & doping rings (e.g., Spain).
That being said - could a clean athlete run a sub-3:29? Maybe...I don't know (could be a few outliers that could do it). But if Cram & Maree were running high mid-3:29s clean, then certainly many others can run 3:30s clean - easliy.
Coe also ran a 3:29 mid in the 80's, when a bit past his best, which supports the idea that he could have run 3:28 in 81, when running a solo 3:31 high off a 52.4 first 400m.
Maree was horribly inconsistent during his career, running a 3:31/3:48 mile one week, coming 5th or 6th the following in 3:37.
ex-runner wrote:
Ah ok fair enough I misunderstood.
Cram was significantly better than Coe at the mile in my opinion however. I couldn't possibly say if that was down to his height. Probably more down to his endurance.
Significantly!? Really? So the man who broke the mile WR once and won a silver medal at the Olympics is 'significantly' better than the man who broke the mile WR 3 times, always from the front in the closing stages, won the Olympic title twice, and is always ranked higher on all time lists?
Their pbs at 1500m were also practically identical - 3:29.67 Cram (in a race with Aouita chasing him)v 3:29.77 for Coe off horrendous pacing. Cram's was set in his very best year, Coe's set when just past his peak.
Coe's 3:32 1500m Olympic win in hot, humid conditions after 6 previous races in 8 days and his 3:31 solo with splits of 52.4 and 1:49.1 are at least the equal of Cram's mile WR in terms of demonstrations of their endurance.
You may think Cram has the edge, but to suggest he was significantly better at a mile than Coe doesn't suggest you have much understanding of miling in that era. You are woefully underestimating Coe's endurance.
I personally think both could have run 3:28 and 3:44 mid for the mile, but if they ran at their best 5 times, my money would always be on Coe to win the majority.
Sydney Maree was also jailed for 23 months for transferring $120,000 of government funds to his own bank account. Whilst not proving he doped, it does suggest he had the (lack of) moral character to dope.
https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20796817/olympian-sydney-maree-released-from-south-african-prison/So, "3:28" would be the best possible time that could be achieved by anyone "clean?" And if Coe could run a 3:28 clean, then why couldn't a Kenya or any African runner for that matter, not be able to run the same time clean these days?
Now on the other hand, if there was widespread PED use going on in the 70s & 80s then we have a whole different conversation here. But that's what I'm trying to ascertain - what the doping climate was like back then? If the Coes, Crams, Ovetts, Marees, etc., were clean then we can base their fastest times or potentially fastest times as the foundation to work with in comparing that era with athletes of this era. All I've really heard here is that only Aouita was highly suspicious and more than likely using PEDs (and he has the fastest 1500m time), but he's one of hundreds of runners back then. Isolated case or many others using PEDs?
I wish there was a former elite or coach from that era that could provide some insight on how widespread PED use was back then.
Agreed.
Coe ran several 3:31s/3:32s off really duff pacing, and was left for long periods in front. I think he was capable of sub 3:30 in 79, as was Ovett. In that Zurich WR Coe's splits were 25.9 for first 200m, 54.3 for 400m, then 1:53.2 at 800m. That's a first 2 laps of 54.3, 58.9, then 56.3 for the 3rd. All over the place. He was also left in front from 700m, and basically ran the first 700m wide in lane 1 of Koskei, getting no drafting at all, not to mention running approx 6m wide.
Coe's last mile WR had a first 2 laps of 55.3, 58.0. Coe only kicked with 100m to go.
Cram's were 57.3, 57.2. Far more even. Cram kicked just after the bell, knowing he had to go then to beat Coe; although he probably expected Coe to be in better form than he was for that race.
Cram's 3:29.67 was with laps of - 55.5, 58.3, 55.9. No, not ideal either, but better than;
Coe's 3:29.77 with laps of 54.0, 58.0, 56.1. And he was obstructed and forced to run wide on the penultimate bend to pass the slowing pacer. Without that he would certainly have broken Cram's UK record and probably regained the WR, which was 3:29.46, too. Cram also had the benefit of knowing Aouita was behind him and closing on that last lap in Nice.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but I think you're right in stating that any claim of Cram being significantly better than Coe over a mile is not backed up by the facts.
One can say that Bolt was significantly better over 100m than Allan Wells, or that Lewis was significantly better over the LJ than Rutherford. Those make sense when comparing their respective careers and pbs.
I think 3:28 is possible clean, but I don't think 3:26 is.
I don't think there was as much widespread use of peds in the 70's and 80s in the middle distances, as there has been since the mid 90's. A lot of that has to do with the availability of EPO from c. 1992, and unfortunately, money. You have to remember that the likes of Walker, Scott, Coe, Coghlan, Ovett, etc. were in the sport from the late 60's, training through the 70's, when the sport was still amateur. Of course there was a few backhanders given out, but no one went into athletics for the financial incentives and possibility of making a career from it. That goes for the 70's too. Officially, sponsorship and trust funds only emerged in 1982 and prize money and the Grand Prix system only started in 1985. Once money came into the sport, then it is obvious that use of drugs to get an edge would soon follow.
As I said in a previous post, I think Cram and Coe were both capable of 3:28 at their peaks in the 80's, but this would be with pretty near perfect pacing, conditions, etc. And of course, if that was possible then, then Kenyans and Americans possessing extreme talent, have the potential to run those sort of times too.
If you look at Coe and Cram at the end of their 3:29 runs, they were both pretty much done in. If you then compare that with the hardly out of breath conditions of the 3:26 men at the end of their races, then the difference to me is down to doping.
Logically, if guys in the 80's had the potential to run 3:28, then on today's slightly faster tracks and with improved knowledge of altitude training, then something slightly faster is possible. Unfortunately, with rampant EPO use in the 90's and subsequent doping convictions for many Moroccans and now Kenyans, it throws a shadow on all super fast performances.
One has to look more analytically at what an athlete has done and continues to do throughout their careers.
As an example, Kiprop was Olympic champion in 2008, but continued to run around 3:31 and 3:32 for several years, despite serious attempts to break 3:30. When he finally did, not only did he break 3:30, which I think many believed he was capable of, he got down to 3:26 very quickly and with apparent ease. There is a world of difference between 3:30 and 3:26.
The sad thing is, now that he has been convicted for EPO use, it puts a question mark over his entire career.
Was he clean and naturally a 3:30 runner, or was he always dabbling with EPO use ? That could well be the case.
Was his 3:28 a natural breakthrough, which then pushed him to taking EPO in an attempt to break the already accepted EPO enhanced WR of EL G? Maybe! If it was, then it's even more tragic.
Ghost1 wrote:
This has been the most unfortunate case of doping, ever in Kenya, and has resulted in untold damage to the reputation of Kenyan runners, in general, who according to well conducted studies by Canova et al., show little or no benefit for EPO supplementation to those particular athletes.
Yeah...sure, when Canova et al has his studies peer-reviewed & published in a reputable journal - then we will take them serious. ?
Let's Get To The Bottom Of This (once and for all) wrote:
So, "3:28" would be the best possible time that could be achieved by anyone "clean?" And if Coe could run a 3:28 clean, then why couldn't a Kenya or any African runner for that matter, not be able to run the same time clean these days?
Now on the other hand, if there was widespread PED use going on in the 70s & 80s then we have a whole different conversation here. But that's what I'm trying to ascertain - what the doping climate was like back then?
You kidding? It was the Wild West out there; doping was the patriotic thing to do to counter the East's doping.
Plus, blood transfusions were legal during Coe's heydays, and even thereafter there was no way to detect the autologous ones.
Finally, we have seen and heard a lot from Coe in recent years. Whilst not proving he doped, it does suggest he had the (lack of) moral character to dope.
Do you ever get tired of posting this flowery tripe?
Quote -"Do you ever get tired of posting this flowery tripe? -unquote
The issue is that Asbel has not been.given adequate chance to give his case, before the jurors.
One feels sorry for events which spiralled uncontrollably, for the angelic faced, ever popular in Eldoret, lanky phenomenon.
One is also worried about what the future will hold for him.
Legitimate concerns.
If you were Kenyan, you would undoubtedly also empathize with Asbel.
Rosa stay silent, why? The case is probably that Rosa is "the brain" behind the doping and Rosa know that Kiprop
will stay silent before the court about this. It`s a maffia dangerous world there.
Yes, I agree with you 100 percent. Anyone accused has no way to defend themselves, which makes this 100 percent a political issue and nothing at all to do with any doping advantages, of which I believe there are none. At least there is NO evidence of there being any benefit. Look at Radcliffe, for example, the greatest outlier in all of athletics, but not banned.
One thing I disagree with Kiprop about is this:
[quote]"I don’t regret telling Rita to carry her own cross. But I did not dope. But he (Rosa) has abandoned me."[/quote}
Seriously?
He threw Jeptoo under the bus, but wants people to support him - which is totally hypocritical.
The organizations who make the accusations should be paying the expenses for athletes to defend themselves.