Well that didn't take long: Asbel Kiprop gives up fight to prove innocence - Says he doesn't have resources to fight IAAF

Mindweek, stop the vulgar personal attacks on other posters. Stop saying that rekrunner or any other poster it getting your posts removed. Stop saying that wejo told you that. He didn't say that to you.

Understand?

I don't think you're very well-researched in this area. There are peer-reviewed published studies on this other than the one NY Times article.

➡️"The availability of recombinant human EPO (rHuEPO) in 1987 in Europe made it clear that this ergogenic hormone would be used illicitly in endurance sports."

➡️"The IOC, however, included this recombinant hormone in the roll of forbidden drugs since 1990, after Calgary Winter Games, where its use was evidenced, and the Seoul Olympic Games, both in 1988, even if such prohibition was just on a moral ground, due to lack of technology to fully detect and differentiate rHuEPO from endogenous EPO."

➡️Seoul = Summer Games = Track & Field.

Further, "Eprex" became approved for use in Europe in 1988. Do you think the clinical trials were done just in that one year? Clinicals can take several years going through all the different phases - athletes could have obtained rEPO easily during the clinicals.

Ever heard of "GW501516?" (i.e.,"exercise in a pill). GW501516 never made it past the clinicals when the FDA put the kibosh on the program when lab rats were developing neoplastic tumors. However, athletes still obtained the drug - there have been several positives with runners, cyclists, racewalkers, etc. WADA even issued a safety warning on it's use. Athletes will get any drug during clinicals if they think it's going to be big performance booster. ?

"Eprex" was approved and put on market in Europe in 88. The aforementioned study says confirmed use at Seoul in 88. The clinicals started at least in 86...what makes you think some athletes in T&F wouldn't have experimented with it prior to 88? Do you think just because no T&F athlete from the 80s has come out and admitted to using rEPO that must be conclusive evidence no one was using it? ?

Interesting link Deano. Key points: 1986, the earliest date officially stated yet by a researcher (no offense to Mindweak), marathoners were using it (which Renato claims it doesn't work for), cyclists dying in their sleep (lots of stories about this even with plain old transfusions), whispers of "a new drug better than blood doping etc," it's not a stretch that epo went from Dutch experiments in the late 1980s to Ethiopia in the early 1990s. The sheer fact so many western cyclists dropped dead from this probably explained the initial reluctance of western runners to use epo, whereas East Africans probably weren't informed about the deaths.

rekrunner wrote:

Rather than ever actually saying "EPO doesn't work for elites", I've long adopted and built on the often repeated claim of many others, who disagreed with Renato:

- EPO works for top East Africans, at the top, like it works for everyone else, at the top

This is one of the reasons why my "performance thread" separates the performances of the non-Africans from East Africans.

So, what have you learned from those numbers? That non-Africans improved by your metrics by 0.5% (1500 m) - 5% (Paula)?

Ok, but what does that say about EPO?

Virtually all of the Spanish National records for distance running were set in the decades of the 90s & 00s:

And in terms of talent pool, I wonder how much athletics lost to cycling & soccer? (The Spanish go nuts over cycling & soccer).

Think of some of Spain's greatest cyclists, e.g, Indurain, Contador, Valverde, Herras, Beloki, etc, focusing on athletics instead of cycling - might have been a different story. Same probably with some of their soccer greats.

All Kenya & Ethiopia really have is distance running.

Young talent will always go where the excitement & glory is at (and $$$)...I think in Spain it's not distance running.

m!ndweak wrote:

nice one man......i have already tried to show this yet REKRUNNER calls me an idiot for it

Let's face it, he does have a point.

Moderator wrote:

Mindweek, stop the vulgar personal attacks on other posters. Stop saying that rekrunner or any other poster it getting your posts removed. Stop saying that wejo told you that. He didn't say that to you.

Understand?

I don't think he does.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Interesting link Deano. Key points: 1986, the earliest date officially stated yet by a researcher (no offense to Mindweak), marathoners were using it (which Renato claims it doesn't work for), cyclists dying in their sleep (lots of stories about this even with plain old transfusions), whispers of "a new drug better than blood doping etc," it's not a stretch that epo went from Dutch experiments in the late 1980s to Ethiopia in the early 1990s. The sheer fact so many western cyclists dropped dead from this probably explained the initial reluctance of western runners to use epo, whereas East Africans probably weren't informed about the deaths.

This is true. The E. Africans were in fact better taken care of and more closely monitored than the cyclists, many of whom were left to their own devices. Usage took off in '87 for the most part. The E. African dominance erupted in '87 and the drug use has been an open secret for decades. Anyone noting the truth was shouted down as a racist. I still think you'd see a lot more E. Africans than anyone else if there were no drug use, but the dominance of the past three decades would vanish. The sport has likely been destroyed or ruined for a very long time in terms of Europeans, East Asians, and Latin Americans competing in large numbers even if things are cleaned up.

I suggest you read the other thread, and look for the answer there. If you have new questions, you might post them there.

what's the point wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Rather than ever actually saying "EPO doesn't work for elites", I've long adopted and built on the often repeated claim of many others, who disagreed with Renato:

- EPO works for top East Africans, at the top, like it works for everyone else, at the top

This is one of the reasons why my "performance thread" separates the performances of the non-Africans from East Africans.

So, what have you learned from those numbers? That non-Africans improved by your metrics by 0.5% (1500 m) - 5% (Paula)?

Ok, but what does that say about EPO?

what's the point wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Rather than ever actually saying "EPO doesn't work for elites", I've long adopted and built on the often repeated claim of many others, who disagreed with Renato:

- EPO works for top East Africans, at the top, like it works for everyone else, at the top

This is one of the reasons why my "performance thread" separates the performances of the non-Africans from East Africans.

So, what have you learned from those numbers? That non-Africans improved by your metrics by 0.5% (1500 m) - 5% (Paula)?

Ok, but what does that say about EPO?

It really is the super sauce, it's the duct tape of world sport.

Kiprop wants his DNA tested to 'prove he didn't take EPO'.

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/sports/article/2001289047/asbel-kiprop-i-want-a-dna-test-to-prove-there-are-no-drugs-in-my-system

Was he framed?

Do we have an innocent man falling prey to corruption in Kenyan Athletics?

I was thinking about this last night, (and Pop_pop will love it), remember when Kenya was threatened in early 2016 with antidoping noncompliance? They were threatened with a ban similar to Russia, so what did they do? They arrested Federico Rosa to show "how tough they were on doping" and promising to set up domestic testing agency. Then a couple of months after the Olympics were over the charges were quietly dropped. Which is interesting seeing that since then two of his athletes (Sumgong and Kiprop) have been busted. Then there was Kiprop who was busted after he paid bribes. Why? They long had known he was a doper but now AK needed to give off an illusion they are being serious about doping, so Kiprop was a sacrificial lamb to build credibility by exposing a marquee name. There was the added bonus, he was no longer a serious medal contender, so Kenya itself loses nothing (it's not like they are going after their current champions). It's all upside.

Not bad, Subway. A scene out of USADA's playbook, where they waited over ten years until they'd bust Armstrong - which then came after his retirement.

Yet, people here still use Armstrong as an example for the toughness of USADA - I am still laughing.

Your scenario is interesting...food for thought.

What happens now? The "B" sample was confirmed, yes? So, I guess Kiprop can appeal and does that go to a CAS hearing for a final disposition?

If the positive holds up with CAS, then I guess he'll be hammered with a 4 yr ban (or could that be modified?).

What happens, though, if CAS finds in favor for Kiprop? (testing protocol wasn't followed correctly, sampling issues, etc.). Would KIprop have grounds for a major lawsuit against AK? If CAS rules in his favor and he's innocent of doping, and since there has been so much character damage to done to him that he should have some legal recourse. The guy's name has been smeared from one end of the world to another. Things are only going to get more interesting.

It's plausible. We can only hope the 'Athletics Integrity Unit' investigation exposes the whole rotten truth.

When you read Kiprop's twitter, it is a bit sad. He does seem to genuinely believe he's innocent, and I don't think such a simple soul like him could be capable of that level of self-deceit. I'm not saying he didn't take EPO, but wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know he was (i.e. it was coaches giving him 'vitamins').

Coevett wrote:

(i.e. it was coaches giving him 'vitamins').

Yes, it is more than likely unscrupulous coaches gave these athletes, going back to the 1990s or way earlier, "vitamin" injections without athletes knowing the contents.

I posted the news about Kiprop being exposed for cheating on his best friend's wife in a seperate thread, but the mods quickly deleted it. Seems it's now against the rules to criticize doping Kenyans completely. In the latest development, the woman Kiprop cheated on has attempted suicide.

I wonder if George Manangoi still thinks Kiprop is innocent and is a 'humble and good man'?

https://www.kahawatungu.com/2018/08/27/woman-asbel-kiprop-video-tries-commit-suicide/

Coevett wrote:

I posted the news about Kiprop being exposed for cheating on his best friend's wife in a seperate thread, but the mods quickly deleted it. Seems it's now against the rules to criticize doping Kenyans completely. In the latest development, the woman Kiprop cheated on has attempted suicide.

I wonder if George Manangoi still thinks Kiprop is innocent and is a 'humble and good man'?

https://www.kahawatungu.com/2018/08/27/woman-asbel-kiprop-video-tries-commit-suicide/

simple...he got EPO from pounding out his mistresses....boom case closed, el k, rekrunner and renato can mock us again withouth making things up about how they think