Well that didn't take long: Asbel Kiprop gives up fight to prove innocence - Says he doesn't have resources to fight IAAF

Why IAAF does nothing about Ethiopia??? wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

thought you would like this subway and wherever casual is....sorry rek and ex runners....more busts i know i know i need to stop cause its damaging to your cause

https://www.efe.com/efe/english/sports/spanish-police-arrest-6-athletes-on-suspicion-of-doping-bust-dealing-ring/50000266-3657078&quot

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Interesting:

"Among those arrested was Ethiopian runner Gizaw Bekele, who won the recent Madrid half-marathon race, police sources told EFE."

Any relation to Kenenisa Bekele?

Inquiring minds want to know wrote:

Interesting:

"Among those arrested was Ethiopian runner Gizaw Bekele, who won the recent Madrid half-marathon race, police sources told EFE."

Any relation to Kenenisa Bekele?[/quote]

Perhaps Banana Bread can tell us, seeing that he has now joined us ?

You state that EPO has diminishing returns, south and north of 3000m.

How do you explain, then, that the times for former dopers, concur, rather than diminish either side of 3k.

Example, your 'typical' former doper runs, 3.34, 7.32, 12.56, 26.52. Those times are all very close to equal value in intrinsic quality.

There are many actual examples.

*Ross Tucker* on why doping works. This is a great analysis and is exactly what is being debated here with EPO. The good stuff with a reference to EPO starts @ 5:30 in. Rekrunner needs to really pay attention to this (I think he has some respect for Tucker? ?).

https://youtu.be/XblhV0yxzOM

Alleged, but unproven EPO user, A. Al Goumri, circa 2005-2008.

For example, Abderrahmin Al Goumri, the unfortunate Moroccan, who died in 2013. His 1500 was the weakest. He should have been sub. 27 mins based on 3/5k times. His marathon is in line with his track times. Based on his 3000, he should have been around 3.35/3.36 for 1500, similar to Tergat's best.

1500 Metres 3:39.80 Malmö (SWE) 03 AUG 1998

3000 Metres 7:32.36 Bruxelles (BEL) 24 AUG 2001

5000 Metres 12:50.25 Bruxelles (BEL) 26 AUG 2005

10,000 Metres 27:02.62 Hengelo (NED) 29 MAY 2005

10 Kilometres 28:34 Bolzano (ITA) 31 DEC 2006

Half Marathon 1:01:19 Safi (TAN) 29 APR 2001

Marathon 2:05:30 London (GBR) 13 APR 2008

You say "lie" but you don't show a contradiction. Here I said "success", not "progress". I gave representative examples. Yet you show "improvements", while I said "failure to succeed for so many for so long" and "near universal lack of success stories". Perhaps we have very different ideas of what it means to succeed. By success, I don't mean beating the runners of the past, but the runners of the present. Perhaps you are confused, because even now, you are not very clear what purpose the comparisons to 1990 served. In the performance thread, 1990 was not chosen as the boundary of "success", but was chosen to provide a means to measure relative group progress, qualitatively and quantitatively. I'm calling low quality from small quantities, although they are positive improvements, "failures to succeed", because I'm comparing them to their competitors, from significantly smaller populations, who improved in significantly larger quantities with significantly higher quality. As impressive as these improved non-African performances are, in a local, national, regional, or absolute sense, they don't hold competitions to see who can run faster than Seb Coe, or David Moorcroft or Steve Jones. Every time you highlight these improvements, I tell you to compare the numbers to judge their value. It is not a "signum function", where anything above 0 has the same value and weight. The number of non-African athletes are few, and the size of the improvements are small. In my all time historical analysis, I counted 32 unique non-African men, over 6 events from 1500m to marathon, able to run faster than my 1990 benchmark, averaging 0.3%-0.7% (0.62% average) improvement. Compare this to some +/- 40 North Africans improving 0.9%-1.5% (1.1% average), and +/- 400 East Africans improving 1.1%-3.2% (2.3% average). Keep in mind these figures are not adjusted per capita. Seriously, you just keep making stuff up, even when it's so obviously wrong. Again, why do you lie so much?

Hey...check this out! wrote:

*Ross Tucker* on why doping works. This is a great analysis and is exactly what is being debated here with EPO. The good stuff with a reference to EPO starts @ 5:30 in. Rekrunner needs to really pay attention to this (I think he has some respect for Tucker? ?).

Well not any more ?,

basically Tucker just explained why guys in 5 &10,000m races between 1992-2008 were finishing with 53s last laps and a 2:23 last 1,000m and weren't out of breath.

Another pure fabrication.

What's up with this? wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

More busts do not damage my cause. I prefer when you post something authoritative, rather than attempting to interpret it for us.

Man...you're snarky as hell today! But we have to be careful what we say to you because of the preferential treatment you get where we get deleted for smartass remarks and you don't!

rekrunner wrote:

Another pure fabrication.

Oh...shut up, and just go watch the Tucker video.

Ghost1 wrote:

Alleged, but unproven EPO user, A. Al Goumri, circa 2005-2008.

Huh? He was sanctioned in 2012 for hematological anomalies of his ABP. This would be a very high off-score from either a pattern of EPO use or blood doping (we would have to look at the CAS hearing to see which one).

Oh boy. PEDs like EPO help runners to improve; I demonstrated that even "your" non-African runners improved after the introduction of EPO, contrary to your repeated claims/lies, and yet you continue to troll.

Fine, why not, this is letsrun after all.

rekrunner wrote:

- In 1993, the first Kenyan breaks 27:00 for 10K, followed by some 50 East and North Africans, running as fast as sub-26:20, while only in 2010, Chris Solinsky becomes the first non-African sub-27:00 runner, 18 years later, and then after the ABP is introduced

What's the ABP got to do with it? There were 24 other guys who ran sub-27 post-ABP.

Seems like out of the six athletes busted, as well as the Ethiopian, there are a couple of 'Spanish' Moroccans and a 'Dutch' Moroccan.

I've been mocked (and threatened) for suggesting that Kenyan dominance is largely the result of PEDs. The overnight domination of Spanish, French, Belgian, Dutch (and British if you include Farah) by Africans, especially moroccans, has hardly been less sudden or overwhelming. Yet it's clear that it's been fueled by PEDs. Moroccans aren't genetic supermen, they just have a hardcore cheating culture and will do and take anything to win. These are Moroccans who were either born or naturalized in European countries, yet they clearly have the same doping culture as native Moroccans. They also, as in this case, dope together with their Morroccan countrymen.

So yes, Kenyans who are winning as 'Americans' etc might just share the doping culture and willingness to cheat as their brothers who stayed at home, just as 'Spanish' Moroccans do.

Seems form the El Pais Spanish article that the PEDs the athletes were using were supplied via Subway's 'dirty triangle' route of Italy - Morocco - Spain.

http://www.elmundo.es/deportes/mas-deporte/2018/06/21/5b2b7a20468aebc47f8b45d1.html

Goumri never admitted to doping, and did not appeal, but by then, 2012, he was almost retired, and in 2013, unfortunately passed away in a car accident.

Goumri always swore on Alkah and the Holy Quoran that he never doped, and as a God Fearing muslim, should have let him have his day in court.

Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

Huh? He was sanctioned in 2012 for hematological anomalies of his ABP. This would be a very high off-score from either a pattern of EPO use or blood doping (we would have to look at the CAS hearing to see which one).

https://www.iaaf.org/news/news/six-new-athletes-sanctioned-under-the-iaaf-at

Well, if Radcliffe had the same ABP results they would have chalked up to being due to dehydration or faulty lab equipment. If Farah had the same sorts of reults they would have been just thrown into the trash. It really depends on the athlete more than anything else as to whether the ABP results are officially deemed indicate doping or not.

Well. Your observations are all correct. But I'd like to add that the fastest white 5000 m runner ever was a drug cheat, and the fastest white 10000 m runner ever appeared on the IAAF "likely doping" list*, was flagged earlier by USADA with high testo and so on, and the fastest white marathon runner ever trained for over a year in Kenya. In conclusion, the top non-African runners were/are also cheats, so the dominance of the Africans is not solely caused by doping. On the other hand, the only British and German and Dutch runners on that "likely doping" list are of African origin... *: Just in case a troll wants to downplay "likely doping" again, I repeat this from the Aden Update thread:

Not an ex-runner wrote:

"Likely doping: Considering the information within the Athlete’s Passport, it is likely that the Passport is the result the Use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method and it is highly unlikely that it may be the result of a normal physiological or pathological condition."

Note the language here: "It is LIKELY that the Passport is the result the Use of Prohibited Method and it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that it may be the result of a normal physiological or pathological condition."

So, your concern & anxiety is why non-African men are not showing the same improvement of the African men? Are you then assuming all non-Africans are doping, and if so, all at the same dosing?

What about testing in Africa vs testing, in say, the European nations? I haven't seen any Africans popped in OOC testing during the 00s - it's been all IC. OTOH, there's been some EPO positives for European athletes invloving OOC testing. Could the risk of OOC testing within the European nations during the 00s influence some athletes to use smaller, less effective doses or to not dope at all? I'm not convinced that everyone in Europe, America, Oceanian, etc was doping. You've painted with a broad bush the assumption that all the athletes from these continents were doping, hence why can't they match the faster times by the Africans.

IMO, I think a more practical way to measure the effectiveness of rEPO (and essentially that's what trying to do with your statistical analysis in the first place - with the assumption everyone post-90s was doping) is to look at individual positive cases and measure improvement from baseline. Doping positives & sanctions are no-brainers (I include blood doping cases as rEPO & blood transfusions achieve the same objective - raising Hct, i.e. "O2-vector doping"). Athletes caught up in doping scandals & doping rings could also be used (e.g., Operation Galgo). Athletes training under a known coach and/or agent with ties to doping would also be fair (e.g., Aden & Rosa). However, steroid positives with male distance runners would be difficult. Do we lump them in with the O2-vector group under the pretense that EPO/blood doping & roids is a popular combination with endurance athletes, or do we let the roid positive stand on it's own?

Again, IMO, examining individual doping cases would be a more practical way than to make the broad assumption that EVERY athlete post-90s was doping with rEPO/blood tranfusions.

OK, fair enough. Let's keep it anecdotal. I suppose Hamilton also knew of Museeuw and it was still his opinion, as an experienced doper, that, despite the fact that doped riders like Museeuw won many one day events, clean riders could also win one day races, but not 3 week grand tours, as the many stages take so much out of the rider by the third week. Brian Fogel said something similar -- EPO didn't seem to make him faster, but heavy efforts hurt a lot less the next day. Don't really see the connection to the Ethiopian female runner.

EPO Fueled One-Day Stage Racers wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Don't see how this matters. He used other drugs too. Not a very scientific approach to show that EPO helps one-day stage races.

It's an anecdotal because you quoted Hamilton - so that wasn't a very scientific approach that EPO only works for 3 week GTs either wiseguy. Museeuw used EPO & HGH - standard operating procedure for cyclists back then. Go give Armstrong a call - he'll tell you. ?

And I see EPO & HGH is the program utilized by this "high-profile" Ethiopian female runner:

Ghost1 wrote:

Goumri never admitted to doping, and did not appeal, but by then, 2012, he was almost retired, and in 2013, unfortunately passed away in a car accident.

Doesn't matter that he didn't admit to doping...a passport sanction goes down as a doping ban. The Russians have a world leading 50+ ABP sanctions and not a one has ever admitted to doping. ?