Well that didn't take long: Asbel Kiprop gives up fight to prove innocence - Says he doesn't have resources to fight IAAF

m!ndweak wrote:

your (sic) as bad as rekrunner complaining about grammer (sic) to sidetrack the thread

And how bad is that? I'm guessing not bad at all considering how rarely that occurs. How many threads do you imagine I have sidetracked with grammer(sic) complaints? On a bad scale of 0-100, it must be around 1. This looks more like your own attempt to sidetrack, deflect, and divert attention from the fact that your "REAL data" contains an error. And rather than admitting what is really a very minor mistake, and just moving on, something that could earn you some much wanted respect, you decide to bring me into this discussion, and make it about me, once again blaming me for something that at its core, is your fault, accusing me of something you perceived I did to other threads.

Now that you've succeeded in sidetracking the attention away from your own message, let's put grammar back on the side of the track and talk for a second about common orthographic errors. I know I'm old school, in a new generation increasingly accustomed to using shortcuts in texting saving time and characters and thumb injuries, but can't help but feel that any message you want to send is weakened by your decision not to capitalize sentences or use punctuation, using "your" when you mean "you are", and misspelling "grammar". Living in a foreign land, I actually have a lot of tolerance for those who speak English as a second language when making grammar, spelling, and other "faux amis" type of mistakes. I would hate to be judged based on my ability to write French or German or Spanish. For that matter, I know my own English has degraded, living for 20+ years among so many non-native English speakers attempting to speak to me in broken English.

15 common grammar mistakes that can kill your credibility as a writer

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Agreed. So much better on here now without that particular moron.

Are you entirely sure this 'ex-runner' chap isn't actually Ventolin?

I wonder if he's a colleague of rekrunner? ?

Inquiring minds want to know wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Are you entirely sure this 'ex-runner' chap isn't actually Ventolin?

I wonder if he's a colleague of rekrunner? ?

"Do you compete in athletics? If so, what are your bests?"

"I’m a non-competitive runner now"

Date: March 13, 2007. Surely he's still trolling us ?

ex-runner wrote:

My arguments make too much sense and so people ignore them and instead try and discredit me by saying I'm rekrunner or venty or i think I've been called both El K and Coevette haha.

Some of your arguments make sense while others don't. One thing, IMO, you're naive about are nations with doping cultures (i.e. Morroco, Kenya, Russia). With these nations, doping may be the normal preparation of most elites. And I think there's no telling how young the athletes start doping. Bad habits are hard to break. Lol.

Here's my take wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

My arguments make too much sense and so people ignore them and instead try and discredit me by saying I'm rekrunner or venty or i think I've been called both El K and Coevette haha.

Some of your arguments make sense while others don't. One thing, IMO, you're naive about are nations with doping cultures (i.e. Morroco, Kenya, Russia). With these nations, doping may be the normal preparation of most elites. And I think there's no telling how young the athletes start doping. Bad habits are hard to break. Lol.

I literally said any of these athletes could have started doping at any time. I specifically stated that Kipketer could have started at 18/19 not just in this magical year 1994 as mindweak was trying to prove.

My main point in this thread is that you can't easily draw out patterns that suggest doping and more specifically pinpoint a year when an athlete supposedly started doping from those progressions posted by mindweak. There are just too many variables unaccounted for.

You can't say an athlete that improves a few seconds from age 18 to 21 must have done so through doping. It's idiotic. I think even Mindweak realised a bit after my Clayton Murphy example, improving from 1:50 to 1:42 in 2 years and there is obviously no 'EPO era' in the united states right now and certainly no amount of EPO would improve an athletes 800m time to that extent. There are obviously other factors which the doping hysterics ignore, factors which also apply to Kenyans. Doesn't rule out doping, but to put it 100% down to drugs is plain stupid.

What do you define as an "EPO-era" in the U.S. right now? It may not be widespread use like in Morocco or Kenya but I think you can't eliminate it's use currently in the U.S.

Review the FB leaked document of the "likely doping" list from 2016. Notice the number of athletes (including Rupp & Jager) with an "X" marked in the column that states "Test for ESA/4 to 2 weeks pre-comp".

ESA = Erythropoiesis-stimulating agent = rEPO

4 to 2 weeks pre-comp = targeting the time frame the athlete tapers off to avoid glowing IC.

so your saying that if your 18 YOU have to improve 5-6 seconds in a 1500m when you are already TOP WORLD CLASS....so what was wrong with ryun? he was a scrub?

he only ran 1:44 like a long time ago, and his AWJR lasted FOR LIKE FOREVER

how come he didnt drop to 1:42 in a few years? or drop from 3:51 to 3:44 or from 3:33 to 3:26-29? only people who do that seem to be kenyans, one of which is BUSTED FOR EPO....stop being a delusional denier

this magical year 1994 as mindweak was trying to prove

i said i would look into 1994, you and the rest of the lazy a$$holes on here wont but will surely rebuke me with the classic

"moron"

"idiot"

My main point in this thread is that you can't easily draw out patterns that suggest doping and more specifically pinpoint a year when an athlete supposedly started doping from those progressions posted by mindweak. There are just too many variables unaccounted for.

yet you and rekrunner DO THE EXACT same thing to claim EPO and PEDs dont work....you make assumptions based on your on biased bullsh*t and claim it as the TRUTH and then insult and harass anyone who doesnt agree with you.

there has been so many studies showing a 5-10% IMPROVEMENT, i use 4% because that is the average number i got when i did the math on runners PROGRESSION from 800-marathon, for MULTIPLE ATHLETES, and guess what? this magical number that you guys claim i just pulled from the air, turns up when i check the PROGRESSION of runners BUSTED FOR EPO.

i didnt make up 4%, but you guys who are TOO LAZY to check for yourself would rather do the easy path of insulting me instead of trying yourself

You can't say an athlete that improves a few seconds from age 18 to 21 must have done so through doping

i was making a POINT that jim ryun, el g and kiprop all had ALMOST IDENTICAL PRs at the same age....but jim ryun was the only one who DIDNT DROP his time in the 1500m, but somehow those two DROPPED LOTS, and one is BUSTED FOR EPO....why must you continue to argue against FACTS? its not some opinion of mine that kiprop is a doper....IT F*CKING IS REALITY

again 4% isnt a number i just pulled from vents a$$.....do i really have to explain it again?

so many lazy fanboys on here, and all they can do is post some insults on me and then some youtube vid and that somehow proves they are right....watch i will do this again for you

here is el g

1998 3:26.00 Roma (ITA) 14 JUL 1998

1994 3:33.61 Nice (FRA) 18 JUL 1994

convert to seconds, 213.61-206.00, % change is 3.56

komen

1997 12:39.74 Bruxelles (BEL) 22 AUG 1997

1996 12:45.09 Zürich (SUI) 14 AUG 1996

1995 12:56.15 Roma (ITA) 08 JUN 1995

1994 13:31.10 Algiers (ALG) 08 JUL 1994

convert to seconds 811.10-776.15, % change 4.30

now for his 1994 (that magical year for kenyans and el g it seems) to his final PR

811.10-759.74, % change 6.33

rudisha

2012 1:40.91 London (GBR) 09 AUG 2012

2011 1:41.33 Rieti (ITA) 10 SEP 2011

2010 1:41.01 Rieti (ITA) 29 AUG 2010

2009 1:42.01 Rieti (ITA) 06 SEP 2009

2008 1:43.72 Oslo (NOR) 06 JUN 2008

2007 1:44.15 Bruxelles (BEL) 14 SEP 2007

2006 1:47.24 Beijing (CHN) 16 AUG 2006

lets use his 1:44.15, since you say his 1:47 was tactical and cant be used

convert to seconds 104.15-102.01, % change 2.38

104.15-101.01, % change 3

104.15-100.91, % change 3.11

kiprop

2015 3:26.69 Monaco (MON) 17 JUL 2015

2014 3:28.45 Monaco (MON) 18 JUL 2014

2013 3:27.72 Monaco (MON) 19 JUL 2013

2012 3:28.88 Monaco (MON) 20 JUL 2012

2011 3:30.46 Rieti (ITA) 10 SEP 2011

2010 3:31.78 Rieti (ITA) 29 AUG 2010

2009 3:31.20 Roma (ITA) 10 JUL 2009

2008 3:31.64 Roma (ITA) 11 JUL 2008

2007 3:35.24 Osaka (JPN) 29 AUG 2007

convert to seconds, 215.24-211.20, % change 1.87, stagnant for 3 yrs

215.24-206.69, % change 3.97

i could keep going but it wont change your mind, i will just end with ryun and see what he would have run with this magical ~4% change

3:33.1

no you have to do the math to try and find his time if you know he would have progress like el g and kiprop were able to do, while he just stagnated, he must have been mindweak and not wanted to work hard im sure

convert to seconds 213.1 x .04 =8.52...this is were i also get 4% change in a 1500 is ~ 8 secnods, some is less or some like ramzi is 9...

213.1-8.52=204.58, covert back to min and sec = 3:24.6 thats the theoretical time jim ryun should have run if he could have magically kept improving like el g and kiprop....SINCE THEY HAD ALMOST IDENTICAL 1500m PRs at the same age

but keep insulting me mr "im in my 20's" d3 or naia scrubb who claims he ran 14:00, married a super model and makes $250,000 a year

You say that a lot, but using my words instead of yours, have I ever claimed EPO and PEDs don't work? Usually what I claim is that, for clean elite athletes trained to their peak, estimates like 4% further improvement from EPO are too high. Sometimes I claim that altitude hi-lo training can bring similar performance benefits, so a sudden jump in improvement could have legal altitude training as a reason. I rarely make claims about PEDs, because it is unclear which substances are PEDs. Also the phrase "PEDs work" is a tautology: it is a logical impossibility for PEDs not to work. If a PED didn't work, then it would not be PE, and we could not call it a PED, but should only call it a D. The main problem I see with your 4% mathematical exercise is not with the 4%, but that most of the athletes in the list were not busted for EPO or blood doping. This makes it impossible to say the 4% gains are due to EPO, unless you assume it. Only then are you able to conclude it.

m!ndweak wrote:

My main point in this thread is that you can't easily draw out patterns that suggest doping and more specifically pinpoint a year when an athlete supposedly started doping from those progressions posted by mindweak. There are just too many variables unaccounted for.

yet you and rekrunner DO THE EXACT same thing to claim EPO and PEDs dont work....you make assumptions based on your on biased bullsh*t and claim it as the TRUTH and then insult and harass anyone who doesnt agree with you.

And I don't like to speak for others, but I'm sure "ex-runner" said something like "I don't even slightly believe that EPO doesn't work." Take away the double negatives, and he believes that EPO works.

You're reading comprehension is really, really bad and so I've had enough discussing this with you. You can't just make up my argument as well as yours. I didn't say anything you've said I said.

4% has no scientific basis, progressions have LOTS of factors associated including doping, training, injuries, maturation etc. You have no way of separating any of the factors, 4% is entirely made up.

Athletes of all nationalities around the ages you keep pulling out, 18-22, show progressions of a few percentage. Ryun ran in the 1960s, I'm sure if he ran today he'd be faster, and again if you know about Ryun's career you'd know he had injury issues. 1:44 on dirt and 3:33 with a ridiculous last lap. You can't base your entire theory off the fact that Ryun was clean in your opinion and anyone who deviates from his tragic lack of progression must be doping.

Just face it, you don't know anything about the sport. Just fiddling with numbers like Ventolin and drawing conclusions you'd already decided upon.

Doping is a big problem in this sport, EPO, steroids and HGH in particular have huge affects over the performances of some elite athletes. But you have absolutely NO IDEA how much it improves an athletes performance and NO IDEA who is on any particular drug. If you think you are so smart why don't you enlighten WADA with your 'evidence'?

Now stop misquoting me.

ok now since 99% of the LRs on here are too lazy to do research and instead just say offensive things to me and use their own OPINION as some sort of golden standard....here we go, time to investigate this as one person said "magical" year 1994

in order to do this we first need to look before 1994....

from the "doctor" rosa

“I then came to Kenya in 1990 and we put together good runners, not the very top, but good runners who then started training specifically for the marathon,” he offers."

"Gabriele estimates that there are about 1,000 Kenyan marathoners on the global circuit whose success has translated into the socio-economic fortunes of their communities.

“The social results are there for all to see as these athletes win a lot of money and are able to help their families,” he says."

"Other management companies have followed Rosa Associati’s initiative".....as i have said before FOLLOW the money, "management companies" really? is that what we call NOP, brooks, hudson etc in the US? lolz how much a year does rosa and canova and these other "management companies" make off of kenya an its runners?

this quote from his own book though says

"Many such passages in Rosa's own voice expand on his emotional attachment to Africa and discuss ways his “Discovery Kenya” project, begun in 1991"

another piece from his book

"Almost nothing is said about the details of Rosa's coaching schedules. This is not a groundbreaking “how-to” book. Nor does it reveal much of Rosa's views on the topical issue of performance enhancing drugs. The most explicit statement comes in a passage where [b*]Poli discusses how common the practice of “blood doping” or “autotransfusion” was in the early 1980s (the freezing of the athlete's own blood, re-injected before competition to increase the red corpuscle count).

It should not be a secret that many of the runners participated in “autotransfusion.” That technique had not been banned yet by the International Olympic Committee, so could not be declared to be doping. But Gabriele Rosa, a doctor, was fiercely against it, and considered “autotransfusion” to be a sophisticated method for middle distance and long distance runners to improve their performance. Gabriele Rosa repeated to me and my circle of friends, “he who wins is the best.” Of course, we understood that I should not have to bow my head in shame in front of anyone."

*Gianni Poli (1986 New York City Marathon winner, who rosa coached

or here is this from " Rosa Associati boss to decide firm’s future, Federico released on bail, Friday July 8, 2016"

"During the plea, the prosecutor urged the case which was filed by Elijah Kiprono Boit, a fourth finisher at the 2001 IAAF World Youth Championships, be adjourned to give time the investigating officer provide medical records.

The complainant, who is now a retired athlete, claims his athletics career was injured through doping in 2004 and 2008 when he was under the Rosa Associati management, a statement that was opposed by Federico’s lawyer Katwa Kigen."

this one a paragraph later

"The Italians have run the company in Kenya for the last 26 years, producing retired and current top athletes like three-time world champion Asbel Kiprop, but Gabrielle said he is uncertain whether to continue with the three camps based in Kapsoit, Kaptagat and Kapsabet."

right after that...

“What has happened is not true. It’s a case from 2004 which is incredible because it has taken someone 12 years to claim that we have a case. We are completely clean and everybody knows that in the world."...except for jeptoo, sumgong, and kiprop...lolz

more...

“I have done a lot for this country and if the results is what happened, then it’s not working in a good way for me. Federico is very clean, I am very clean and the company is very clean. We are famous so this case is portraying a bad image to Kenya and not me or my company,” Gabrielle affirmed.

lets summarize this....rosa is complaining that he has done so much for the image of kenya its insulting to arrest him for being the brains of kenyan doping, and if the kenyan doping is true....it has nothing to do with his "company". basically he proclaims jeptoo as his marvel till she is busted, then throws her under the bus, same with sumgong, and now kiprop...one of his pride and joys. why rosa gets the free pass, but al sal takes all the heat....imagine if rupp came out and said he doped and it was al sals doing....we we crucify al sal...in kenya and LR, we doubt kenyans dope and there is no waaaay in hell rosa was involved lolz

the last bit of the article

"The firm has eight athletes who will represent Kenya at the Rio Olympic Games having produced New York champion Stanley Biwott,* London Marathon winner Jemimah Sumgong, retired record holders, Paul Tergat (marathon), Moses Kiptanui (steeplechase) and the late Beijing 2008 Olympic champion, Samuel Wanjiru.

Kenyan police also have in custody a former Rosa and Associati coach, Claudio Berardelli, who is expected to be charged on similar offences when he appears in court on Tuesday.

Berardelli was previously coach to several Kenyan athletes including the disgraced marathon runner Rita Jeptoo, who tested positive for banned blood-booster EPO in September 2014, and whose case is currently before the Court of Arbitration for Sports in Lausanne, Switzerland."

*sumgong got BUSTED AT RIO, as well as that rotich guy...oh his next court hearing is july 23 i believe

https://www.capitalfm.co.ke/sports/2016/07/08/rosa-associati-boss-decide-firms-future-federico-released-bail/

now from the article written by your boys brojos

"Dr. Rosa has been involved with Kenyan athletics since 1990, both as a coach and agent (Moses Tanui, Paul Tergat, Margaret Okayo, Martin Lel and Asbel Kiprop are among the athletes he has represented), and his involvement in Kenyan athletics has coincided with the Kenyan marathon boom and the professionalization of the sport."

notice this, rosa loves to brag about one of his best UNTIL they get popped, then he runs from them and says nothing or how he had no idea

"Unbelievable side note: in 1990, there wasn’t a single Kenyan woman in the top 200 marathon times of the year, and only one Kenyan man in the top 100 according to the Association of Road Race Statisticians."

"LRC: The Rosa e Associati statement said, “doping in Kenya has become a plague, because of unscrupulous Kenyans doctors who approach the athletes, brainwashing and subjecting them to illegal treatments.” However in this case, Sumgong is coached by her husband Noah Talam, who is also the brother of Sarah Chepchirchir. Assuming Sumgong did test positive, it is hard to believe her husband and coach would not know what was going on. It is even possible that he was orchestrating the doping. Considering the familial relationships involved and Rita Jeptoo’s positive test, it is hard to believe this is an isolated incident. What sort of contact have you had with Noah Talam and what is his status and the status of the other runners in the group?

We are all very concerned about the issue. We have currently decided to suspend both Talam and all the athletes in Jemima’s group. Since we do not have a clear picture, we cannot express ourselves safely. As we have done in the previous cases, we have suspended the whole group, asking everyone for maximum cooperation in providing us or our local collaborators with any piece of information they are aware of."

see here is PART of the problem brojos, you ACCUSE talam, instead of going after the Don, Rosa...and rosa then throws them all under the bus

some more

"After the first three doping positives from their athletes (Kisorio, Jeptoo, Jeruto,*add in kiprop), did the Rosas change anything to ensure that no more of their athletes take performance-enhancing drugs?

After Jeptoo’s positivity we asked the IAAF and the Kenyan Federation to introduce more restrictive controls on the group of athletes with whom Rita trained, giving all the information needed.

In addition, from that time on, we began to carry out blood tests on athletes to monitor any changes in blood values that are the basis of the biological passport, or any abnormal values. In the first year of this activity, we fired 2 athletes who had non-conforming blood tests and removed one who refused to undergo controls, informing IAAF, AK, teammates, managers and organizers about our decision and our doubts.

its nice to have your own lab doing tests to make sure everyone is in spec so no more busts...cause thats bad for the image

one more

"It seems like in the best-case scenario, the Rosas were naive to what was going on in their very own camp after another prominent runner had tested positive for EPO. These runners receive hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money and the Rosas get their percentage. Do they feel like they have received any unjust money and will they use any of it to help combat doping?"

again....FOLLOW THE MONEY...what % does rosa and canova get from the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS?

here is from the YEAR before lolz

"In terms of coaching, Dr. Rosa said is thrilled by the results of both Stanley Biwott and Jemima Sumgong since he has taken over their coaching in the spring of 2015."

see that? first he takes FULL credit for sumgong kicking a$$, then she goes all EPO and he blames it all on Talam...nice one rosa

and he said this

"As for Sumgong, Dr. Rosa said things are going great as he’s got a great working relationship with Sumgong’s husband, whom he switched from being a rabbit to being Dr. Rosa’s coach on the ground for Sumgong when he’s in Italy. Dr. Rosa said Sumgong’s husband is “very smart, very intelligent” and that “every day” they agree on what training works best for her.

yeah smart, very intelligent"....until sumgong gets popped and then rosa acts like he barely knows him and spent 90% of his time in italy lolz

from this article "Straight Dope: Exclusive Interview With Rita Jeptoo’s Agent Federico Rosa, November 4, 2014"

"But Rosa, in an exclusive sit-down interview with Competitor.com on Sunday night in New York City, sang a different tune, saying, “I didn’t think there was any mistake because that’s a very, very, very, delicate situation and I don’t trust much in mistakes on finding substance. When there’s a mistake, the ‘A’ sample is slightly different from the ‘B’ sample and it cannot be said it’s positive. I don’t remember there [ever] being a mistake, especially when they told me it was EPO.”

....except when its lagat, then EPO sample B somehow doesnt match sample A...lolz

"And what was her reaction when you told her the news?

She started to say, “I don’t know. I had malaria. I went to see a doctor. He gave me an injection.” And that’s not what’s happened."

spiked toothpaste

making out with trannys

rouge masseuses

malaria

$32 tea...ok got it

more...

" Was this in September that she went to see a doctor?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But normally we have an Italian doctor in Nairobi. If there’s any problem of this kind with my athletes, we tell them to fly to meet this doctor, which is 100 percent safe. He’s knows us. He’s an old guy—20 years we’ve known him.

And he works in Nairobi?

Yes.

So she went to see him?

No, she didn’t go to see him. When one of my athletes tells me, “I have stomach problems or this or that” they get a flight tomorrow, go to meet the doctor. We book you, go there, test it and then the doctor in the afternoon comes back and says, “There’s this problem. You need antibiotics or you need this as well.”

And what is that doctor’s name?

The Italian? I prefer not to say because I don’t want to ruin any relationship."

really? rosa hiding this phantom italian doc? no not shady at all...im sure if this person was real and was known, he would hopefully be interviewed and asked the tough questions...but no there is no doc, just the rosas

more

"How long have you represented Kenyan athletes?

Since ’96."

so the Don, 90-91 depending, and rosa jr 96

more

"And how long do you think that doping problem has gone on?

Five, six, seven years maximum. That’s completely changed our mentality. When I used to work back in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was really difficult to convince an athlete to take even a tablet for fever or bring [them] to a hospital. It was a completely different mentality. Right now it’s completely changed because a situation like races in China where there is no doping, $40,000 for winning , athletes will go."

classic, so rosa jr claims 7 yrs at max ago was when doping in kenya started....that would be 2007. according to rekrunner, ghost and el k, kenyas doping started with jeptoo lolz, and the classic " it was really difficult to convince an athlete to take even a tablet for fever or bring [them] to a hospital" lie...how many times do i hear this "they wont even take an asprin' lolz

more

"Who benefits when the Kenyan athletes dope, besides the athletes who are running fast times?

The agent. The coach, probably, I don’t know if they make any deals with the doctor to get some of the winnings or not. But I can say for sure the agent.

lolz lolz lolz, again how many times do i have to ask HOW MUCH OF A % DOES ROSA AND CANOVA MAKE OFF OF KENYANS?

more

What do you think needs to be done in Kenya specifically to reverse this problem?

Well, I’ll tell you what I will probably do on my own that’s to keep our reputation clean. All my athletes are close to us and stand with us and are very upset for the situation. I will try to make maybe a monthly blood test, very simple with three parameters so you see the valuation of the blood and on our side publish [the results] so anybody can see and this can help to control. And the main thing is to do a laboratory in Eldoret where you can do a blood test out of competition because that is going to really stop the athletes to do this anymore because they don’t want there to be an issue.

did he ever publish these results?

more

"Another one of your athletes, Jemima Sumgong, finished a very close second at the New York City Marathon (on Sunday). Does the news of Rita this past week take away from her accomplishment in any way?

I don’t know. I think you read that they say she [Sumgong] has been banned for two years and though the issue was not true. That was really bad. And of course she’s in the same group [as Rita] and people have tried to use this, probably yes, probably it takes away a bit from what she has done, what she has been training, what she has been fight for. But I think it’s another situation that needs to be cleared very, very properly. I have right here the documentation I had in the press conference I was ready to give to anybody who was doubting her being clean. But yes, probably, but I am very confident with everything going in order and to come back and not talk in the future of doping or dirty athletes but just of what they used to be successful athletes and that most of them are still.

oh he had documentation, and he was VERY CONFIDENT oh not talking about anymore doping or dirty athletes from his group....yeah sumgong and kiprop....oh and just remember canova said sumgong wasnt TOP TIER lolz

this one from "the irish times" Dark cloud of doping hanging over Kenyan athletics, Wed, Nov 12, 2014"

"Kisorio later told a German TV documentary doping was rife in Kenya, giving a detailed description of his blood-doping and steroid regime, claiming “everyone told me that I wasn’t the only one” and that “when you run, you run so smooth”.

This raised some concern within the Kenyan athletics fraternity, plus some of the foreign athletes who had frequently gone to Iten to train, including Britain’s Paula Radcliffe, and more recently Mo Farah.

"It is reckoned EPO can help an elite marathon runner improve their time by between three-four minutes, which for many Kenyans, can be the difference between making $50,000 and not"

so the irish times like OTHERS have come to the same conclusion, in a marathon 3-4 minutes...AKA ~ a 4% gain...i dont make this sh*t up, but keep insulting me with offensive talk, cause thats all you got

from the article

"Kenyan Athletes Suspended For Doping 2012-2014 – Not including athletes warned and/or cleared)

1 Onyancha Basweti (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

2 Salome Biwott (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

3 Wilson Erupe (Marathon: two-year ban, EPO)

4 Liliane Jelagat (10km: two-year ban, EPO)

5 Peris Jepkorir (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

6 Pauline Kahenya (Half marathon: one-year ban, corticosteroids)

7 Genoveva Kigen (3km-Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

8 Nahashon Kimaiyo (Marathon: one-year ban, corticosteroids)

9 Ben Kimutai (Marathon: one-year ban, corticosteroids)

10 Nixon Kiplagat (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

11 Matthews Kisorio (10k-Marathon: two-year ban, EPO)

12 Rael Kiyara (Marathon: two year ban, steroids)

13 Moses Kurgat (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

14 Cosmas Kyeva (Steeplechase/Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

15 Asiba Nyaboke (Marathon: two-year ban, steroids)

16 Ronald Rutto (Steeplechase/Marathon: two-year ban, EPO)

17 Anthony Wairuri (Marathon: two year-ban, steroid)

18 Ben Serem (Marathon: two-year ban, steroid)

19 Jacqueline Nytepi (Marathon: two-year ban, steroid)

sumgong (EPO)

kiprop (EPO)

here is another nice article

Just who is helping Kenyan athletes to dope?, By Kimathi Kamau: Saturday, October 21st 2017

sounds like a kenyan wrote this one....

"Berardelli and his assistant, Daniel Cheribo Kiplangat alongside a pharmacist practising in Kapsabet, Dr Stephen ‘Kalya’ Kiplagat Tanui, were accused of conspiring to injure the profession of Jeptoo"

holy sh*t batman! i have never seen anything besides claudio being in trouble...a PHARMACIST!?!? looks like jeptoo tried spilling beans, and somehow was silenced

"To date, investigations of senior officials at the IAAF led by former president, Lamine Diack and his son, Papa Masatta Diack and here at home, two suspended top Athletics Kenya officials — David Okeyo (Deputy President) and Isaac Mwangi (CEO) — by Ethics Board of the world governing body are still on.

They are accused of, among other offences, abetting the cover up or soliciting bribes to either exonerate dope cheats or reduce suspensions and to unravel the cases, the DCI and anti-narcotic officers should have followed the same root and branch approach."

or this one

"Doping: Athletes’ time raise eyebrows, By Robin Toskin: Tuesday, April 11th 2017"

"However, Norwegian Anti-Doping crusader Arve Bergan, in antidopingworld.wordpress.com, questioned how Dr. Gabriele Rosa was with the athletes twice per day and not able to understand they are doping."

he tells the brojos he wasnt even in kenya...but before sumgong he said he had to move back to take over coaching and was SUPER PROUD of her improvements, and here he is asked about being blind about sumgong doping when he was with her 2 times a day....for being such a smart coach as he claims he is pretty forgetful

"Bergan charged: “Gabriele and Federico Rosa, it’s time to tell the truth. Either admit you’ve been asleep? at the wheel while your athletes have doped with impunity or admit that you helped facilitate it?”

thats how you ask the tough questions brojos!

ok ok sorry got side tracked when trying to find when rosa first came to kenya

90-91 is the best i can find, 94 is when tergat, komen and kipketer made HUGE improvements, and 96 is when rosa jr joined his dad.

dont worry haters, more research on its way, just be patient.....in the mean time please refrain from calling me an idiot or moron because your blind opinions DONT want the truth....that and i was BANNED for less....you dont want ol malmo gutting this thread im sure

I've hardly seen any comments in letsrun I could agree more than with everything ex-runner has written to this subject. Obviously someone with common sense and not limited by some crude ideology (at least concerned with this subject here, I can't speak for other subjects he might have commented on).

I know how difficult it is to argue with people like m!ndweak who misinterpret all your comments (willingly or not, I don't know).

All the conclusions which m!ndweak did from his poor statistics are just laughable. But ex-runner has explained this already clearly.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Wycliffe Kinyamal

2018 1:43.91 Shanghai (CHN) 12 MAY 2018

2017 1:43.94 Rovereto (ITA) 29 AUG 2017

2016 1:50.17 Dar-es-Salaam (TAN) 30 APR 2016

Someone can correct me but I have never seen an athlete drop from 1:50 to 1:43 in one year before when 800m was their primary distance.

Amos went from 1:47 at 17 to 1:41.7 at 18, then got slower. His agent is Federico Rosa!

ok so 1993

top 5 times of the world

800 metres

Main race this year: World Championships 800 metres

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Nixon Kiprotich (KEN) 1:43.54

2. Martin Steele (GBR) 1:43.84

3. Paul Ruto (KEN) 1:43.92

4. Johnny Gray (USA) 1:44.03

5. Sammy Kibet Langat (KEN) 1:44.06

1,500 metres

Main race this year: World Championships 1,500 metres

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:29.20

2. Fermín Cacho (ESP) 3:32.01

3. Abdi Bile (SOM) 3:32.83

4. Mohamed Suleiman (QAT) 3:33.29

5. Simon Doyle (AUS) 3:33.39

(no kenyans, but but but i thought they have since the dawn of time dime a dozen 3:33 guys!)

Mile

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:44.39

2. Abdi Bile (SOM) 3:51.66

3. Steve Cram (GBR) 3:52.17

4. Jim Spivey (USA) 3:52.37

5. Simon Doyle (AUS) 3:52.56

3,000 metres

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 7:29.24

2. Paul Bitok (KEN) 7:34.98

3. Moses Kiptanui (KEN) 7:35.79

4. Brahim Jabbour (MAR) 7:36.54

5. Jim Spivey (USA) 7:37.04

1. Ismael Kirui (KEN) 13:02.75

2. Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) 13:03.17

3. Khalid Skah (MAR) 13:04.67

4. Yobes Ondieki (KEN) 13:05.09

5. Richard Chelimo (KEN) 13:05.14

(right around ronos 1970s times)

10,000 metres

Main race this year: World Championships 10,000 metres

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Yobes Ondieki (KEN) 26:58.38

2. Richard Chelimo (KEN) 27:07.91

3. William Sigei (KEN) 27:16.81

4. Khalid Skah (MAR) 27:17.74

5. Moses Tanui (KEN) 27:18.32

Marathon

Main race this year: World Championships Marathon

RANK 1993 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Dionicio Cerón (MEX) 2:08:51

2. Vincent Rousseau (BEL) 2:09:13

3. Kim Wan-Ki (KOR) 2:09:25

4. Gert Thys (RSA) 2:09:31

5. Cosmas Ndeti (KEN) 2:09:33

lolz!! the best kenyan was about RUPP style (yeah yeah yeah i know he dropped a 2:06)

now 1994, what i was mocked and now is called the "magical" year

800 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Benson Koech (KEN) 1:43.17

2. Wilson Kipketer (KEN) 1:43.29

3. Vebjørn Rodal (NOR) 1:43.50

4. Johnny Gray (USA) 1:43.73

5. David Singoei (KEN) 1:44.07

1,500 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:30.61

2. Vénuste Niyongabo (BDI) 3:30.66

3. Azzedine Sediki (MAR) 3:32.71

4. Mohamed Suleiman (QAT) 3:32.73

5. Hicham El Guerrouj (MAR) 3:33.61

(still no kenyans, i thought they had DIME A DOZEN 3:33 guys any day of the year)

Mile

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 3:48.67

2. Vénuste Niyongabo (BDI) 3:48.94

3. Abdi Bile (SOM) 3:50.67

4. Steve Holman (USA) 3:50.91

5. Mohamed Suleiman (QAT) 3:51.31

3,000 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 7:25.11

2. Paul Bitok (KEN) 7:34.36

3. Dieter Baumann (GER) 7:34.69

4. Aloys Nizigama (BDI) 7:35.08

5. Moses Kiptanui (KEN) 7:35.23

5,000 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) 12:56.96

2. Khalid Skah (MAR) 13:00.54

3. Bob Kennedy (USA) 13:02.93

4. Brahim Lahlafi (MAR) 13:03.36

5. Noureddine Morceli (ALG) 13:03.85

(where are those kenyans!?!?)

10,000 metres

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. William Sigei (KEN) 26:52.23

2. Haile Gebrselassie (ETH) 27:15.00

3. William Kiptum Muigei (KEN) 27:17.20

4. Armando Quintanilla (MEX) 27:18.59

5. Aloys Nizigama (BDI) 27:20.51

Marathon

RANK 1994 WORLD BEST PERFORMERS TIME

1. Cosmas Ndeti (KEN) 2:07:15

2. Andres Espinosa (MEX) 2:07:19

3. Vincent Rousseau (BEL) 2:07:51

4. Jackson Kipngok (KEN) 2:08:08

5. Hwang Young-Cho (KOR) 2:08:09

so you have a MEXICAN right there neck and neck with a kenyan, i thought these times were SUB PAR according to canova and his fanboys....yeah they are when 2:07 low is clean and 3-4 min drop when your kenyan rivals EPO it up.....then it becomes 2:03-04 right where they are now

No offence Mr M!ndweak, but this must be taking up days, and now getting in to weeks, of your life.

I'm finding I'm just not bothering reading those researched long posts of yours and if that's the case with others then you're probably wasting your time and effort.

Might be time to move on and do something more productive. Just sayin'.

You will have to explain to everyone what your latest collection of numbers is supposed to mean. I think you should learn the difference between data and information before making your next post.

ex-runner wrote:

You will have to explain to everyone what your latest collection of numbers is supposed to mean. I think you should learn the difference between data and information before making your next post.

+1

Deanouk wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Wycliffe Kinyamal

2018 1:43.91 Shanghai (CHN) 12 MAY 2018

2017 1:43.94 Rovereto (ITA) 29 AUG 2017

2016 1:50.17 Dar-es-Salaam (TAN) 30 APR 2016

Someone can correct me but I have never seen an athlete drop from 1:50 to 1:43 in one year before when 800m was their primary distance.

Amos went from 1:47 at 17 to 1:41.7 at 18, then got slower. His agent is Federico Rosa!

Thanks, I'm now laughing my head-off, perfect example, an age cheat and drug cheat all in one.

ex-runner wrote:

4% has no scientific basis, progressions have LOTS of factors associated including doping, training, injuries, maturation etc. You have no way of separating any of the factors, 4% is entirely made up.

☝️Here's a scientific basis: Altitude native Kenyans improved an average of ~5% in a 3k TT after rEPO administration. This was off a moderate dose of 50 IU/kg 4x week for 4 weeks that only raised Hct about 10%. Imagine larger doses that would raise Hct much higher - no telling how much improvement would occur.

Here's the summary of the actual study: