No. To begin with, Collier is actually the older athlete August/99 vs November/99.
I’m saying, Watson is the faster of the two at everything except for the 1500/Mile, and even then she is only a few seconds slower. My point is... even on a year like this, where Collier seems unstoppable and Watson seems to be all but that, you have to put things into perspective.
Cauliflower. wrote:
Rotich the Rotich wrote:
This was an adjustment year for Watson, next year she should be back to her 2017 form and even more consistent on. top of that. Collier is a massive talent, but there are a few reasons why I don’t think she’ll be beating Watson next year. To begin with, Watson has been a consistent 2:02-2:03 runner since she was a Sophomore in high school, and at her best was a Consistent 2:00-2:01 runner; Collier has only matched that effort a handful of times, and also only run under 2:01 once compared to Watson’s three times. Athough results may not show it, Watson is likely in very similar form to what she was in a year ago, the nature of NCAA races, with more tactics and generally larger fields makes it difficult to perform at your best, especially as a female runner.
Comparing Collier and Watson’s current seasons bests, you’ll be surprised to see, they aren’t that far off from each other, even though Watson’s season may have seemed a bit lackluster.
Sammy Watson:
400 - 54.77
800 - 2:02.2
1500- 4:21.45
Mile - 4:42.3 (converted)
Caitlin Collier:
400 - 54.14
800 - 2:00.85
1500 - 4:17.93(converted)
Mile - 4:38.48
(Hopefully this works)
Trackbot! PRs Sammy Watson
Trackbot! PRs Caitlin Collier
Trackbot! Compare Sammy Watson vs Caitlin Collier
Obviously Collier is the better athlete right now, but I’m not exactly sure what that will mean in the long run. With Collier going to Stanford and Watson rounding back into form with a new NCAA title, the tides will undoubtedly begin to shift again. One thing I can say with confidence is that the USA has a bright future ahead of it with a talented lineup.
And we’ll be able to see the first glimpse of that future at the World Junior champs this summer, where Watson and Collier could settle this debate for us once and for all.
So Collier has faster times at EVERYTHING relevant to this discussion and is the younger of the two athletes that also is not as lean, but you want to bet on Watson. Collier has way more upside at this point.
However, you're not recognizing that Watson will grow as well, and in a big way. Her mental ability is what makes her very strong as a runner. Yesterday's 800m race was the toughest out all the races, because as soon as the race started the weather became ferocious. It looked like the Boston marathon out there, but Sammy pushed through and maintained her composure. She will only get better and faster, and the two runners are only a year a part. Sammy is a very strong runner, and I'm sure she will probably run 1500m as well. Winning the NCAA championship in the 800m as a freshmen is going to take her ability and mind state to another level.
As for the times, it was cold and raining pretty hard during this race. Not exactly PR material. She ran a smart race and came on strong at the end. Gig'Em!!
Scorpion_runner wrote:
However, you're not recognizing that Watson will grow as well, and in a big way. Her mental ability is what makes her very strong as a runner. Yesterday's 800m race was the toughest out all the races, because as soon as the race started the weather became ferocious. It looked like the Boston marathon out there, but Sammy pushed through and maintained her composure. She will only get better and faster, and the two runners are only a year a part. Sammy is a very strong runner, and I'm sure she will probably run 1500m as well. Winning the NCAA championship in the 800m as a freshmen is going to take her ability and mind state to another level.
Why do you feel that Watson will grow in a big way? Over the past four years she has gotten slower each season in the 400 and although her 800 time was creeping down for 3 of those past 4 years, this year it went the other way. Given she is not going to be getting any leaner and seems to be losing speed judging by her open 400 times, I don't see her making a big jump suddenly. If nothing else she looks like an international class athlete, though so I certainly wouldn't want to bet against her.
It will be interesting to see how Stanford has Collier train. She made it to NXN her junior year so obviously has range that Watson does not.
Rotich, thanks for pointing out that Collier is in fact older than Watson.
She a beast wrote:
It doesn't surprise me. She was huge high school talent. Anyone notice how little attention/spotlight milesplit put on her last year? They talked and talked about the girl from VA that was running 5 or 6 seconds slower but barely mentioned Sammy Watson? She was the most impressive runner across the board last year in my opinion with her 800/1000 times.
Do you mean Rachel McArthur? She is still very talented herself, but she got more attention than Watson because her parents work at milesplit.
Yes thats who I meant, didnt feel like butchering her name haha. That makes sense, but its pretty corrupt lol. They barely gave Sammy exposure last year.
Who has been coaching the A&M 800 runners? Francique was fired at the end of indoors and the athletes - both men and women - have continued to run really well. I’m impressed that they stayed the course so well with a mid season coaching change
A friend of mine who ran longer distances for A&M said those two can't stand each other. He said there was a huge catfight between those two during indoor: Scratching, clawing, everything ... took 6 teammates to pull them apart. And sorry, no, he didn't have pix or video. Some video was taken, but deleted, unfortunately.
Crazy 8s wrote:
Anyone else get the impression that Sammy Watson and Jasmin Fray may be teammates, but don’t really like each other? I’ve never seen the, congratulate each other and the interview after the SEC 800 it looked like Fray rolled her eyes while Watson was talking.
Anyone have the video of this interview?
Cauliflower. wrote:
So Collier has faster times at EVERYTHING relevant to this discussion and is the younger of the two athletes that also is not as lean, but you want to bet on Watson? Collier has way more upside at this point.
Look. I think arguments can be made for both. I mean in track times are obviously very important but let's don't forget something very important. Who has won something of significance?
WATSON. She has world youth, world junior and now NCAA titles.
A Stanford woman hasn't won an NCAA outdoor title in the middle distance or distances since 2004.
And the times mentioned above are only seaonal bests.
Watson's PBs are better - 52.69 and 2:00.65 from HS.
teamrivalry wrote:
Anyone have the video of this interview?
Don’t entertain this, I’m pretty sure it’s just a troll back and forthing under different tags. Both girls are from New York and only a year or two apart in age. In every interview I’ve watched, Watson has done nothing but praised Fray, and even called her a “big sister” to her. Fray isn’t some young brat with entitlement issues and Watson isn’t some little girl with an ego bigger than her own head. If any of this were true, neither of them would be running right now, let alone NCAA finalists. Fray and Watson are talented and talent isn’t limited to the physical route, these two have good heads on their shoulders and none of this is even remotely consistent with the characters they’ve represented.
rojo wrote:
Cauliflower. wrote:
So Collier has faster times at EVERYTHING relevant to this discussion and is the younger of the two athletes that also is not as lean, but you want to bet on Watson? Collier has way more upside at this point.
Look. I think arguments can be made for both. I mean in track times are obviously very important but let's don't forget something very important. Who has won something of significance?
WATSON. She has world youth, world junior and now an NCAA title.
A Stanford woman hasn't won an NCAA outdoor title in the middle distance or distances since 2004.
And the times mentioned above are only seaonal bests.
Watson's PBs are better - 52.69 and 2:00.65 from HS.
Agree that arguments can be made for both.
Watson's PB in the 800 is .20 faster, which is negligible. Her 400 PB of 52.69 is now 3 years ago, so that's hardly relevant anymore either.
Watson's winning time in 2015 for that youth title was 2:03.54
In 2016 she won the U20 title in 2:04.52
In 2018 she won NCAAs in 2:04.21
Watson has stagnated, although if you're a champion and you've stagnated you're still a champion! Maybe she needs to race against pros to be pushed to the next level? Hard to bet against her and her morphological characteristics are absolutely world class.
2018 2:02.20 Sacramento (USA) 25 MAY 2018
2017 2:00.65 Bellinzona (SUI) 18 JUL 2017
2016 2:02.91 Clovis (USA) 25 JUN 2016
2015 2:03.54 Cali (COL) 19 JUL 2015
2014 2:06.35 Humble, TX (USA) 26 JUL 2014
Collier has gotten faster in the 800 each of the past 5 season. I don't know much about Stanford, but I'm putting my money on her for 2019. She had virtually zero competition in Florida in HS and does not appear to be excessively lean like so many female HS superstars, so she still has upside there.
2018 2:00.85 Nashville (USA) 02 JUN 2018
2017 2:03.32 St. Louis (USA) 01 JUN 2017
2016 2:04.89 Clovis (USA) 24 JUN 2016
2015 2:10.11 Gainesville (USA) 02 APR 2015
2014 2:13.54 Jacksonville (USA) 02 MAY 2014
Job hunting wrote:
Who has been coaching the A&M 800 runners? Francique was fired at the end of indoors and the athletes - both men and women - have continued to run really well. I’m impressed that they stayed the course so well with a mid season coaching change
I'm curious as well and surprised nobody asked her in the interviews I saw.
I don't know who coached her, but I would really like to know who Henry is going to hire.
Coach Pat Henry spends time almost each and everyday with the 400 and 800 runners. Even more time after sec's . Francique had laid down the ground work and not much to change. Coach Milton Mallard was there to bring out the best in them. From what I saw he was a quiet guy and did not make a lot of noise. Gave a lot of respect to the athletes. Coach Mallard was an All-American while at LSU under Coach Henry. From what I heard there is no reason that he wouldn't be back. The athletes I know sure want him back.
Looking for today's results , the usatf results page shows up blank for me.
Sammy 2:08
ATP 2:08
Collier 2:08
Mcintosh 2:08
Strategic slow races in hot weather. 90+ degrees on the track.
The straw arguments of Collier vs Watson can officially end as both are in the 800 final at US juniors along with Avi’Tai Wilson-Perteete (2:01.14 pb) .
LetsRun.com wrote:
The straw arguments of Collier vs Watson can officially end as both are in the 800 final at US juniors along with Avi’Tai Wilson-Perteete (2:01.14 pb) .
Well that is a rather awesome turn of events. At least I had no idea this could come about so soon. Very excited to see how this plays out. Will the revolution be televised? Or at least streamed?
LETS RUN had no right to change the title to this thread to create a battle narrative between young runners....This thread was about Sammy having a great run at NCAAs, not about Junior USAs.