MP = easy pace only for Gallowalkers. My sister ran her last couple marathons at 5:20 to 5:30 and her easy runs were faster than that. She just didn't do enough of them to race a marathon.
MP = easy pace only for Gallowalkers. My sister ran her last couple marathons at 5:20 to 5:30 and her easy runs were faster than that. She just didn't do enough of them to race a marathon.
Easy pace < Race pace - no matter the race lenght, a simple fact. Otherwise you're very bad at racing.
banned runner again wrote:
Seyta wrote:...You most likely have never had to deal with slower runners. Training theory is utter garbage in many cases like these. Slow marathon runners approaching the 4.5 - 5 hour ranges are perfectly capable of "easy runs" at ~10 minute pace. This is either extremely close to or faster than their actual marathon pace. For them, what makes the marathon difficult is the fact that it is 26.2 miles of continuous running. They aren't struggling to maintain their marathon pace. They're struggling just to finish.
I've trained some faster runners and some slower runners, and trained with a wide variety. Your statements are generally correct if we are talking about untrained slow runners. But a runner with relatively little talent who trains well and reaches close to their potential (be it, maybe, 3-high to 4-mid) will still find, just like faster runners, that well-trained M-pace is considerably faster than a legitimate easy pace.
But of course, a poorly trained marathon runner, meaning one who has not prepared deliberately and well (and specifically, for the marathon), will in most cases not be able to run 26 miles continuously as fast as they can run their daily shorter runs at a conversational easy pace.
Is the correct answer. /thread.
Seyta wrote:
Wonderin' wrote:
Maybe this is a terminology mixup. By easy pace, I'm referring to long run pace, long slow distance pace, LSD pace. If that's what you mean, too, then I'm really lost. Are there really training programs -- published or coached -- that have people running their slowest runs faster than marathon pace? That makes no sense. The benefits of the long run would largely be lost, and the person would be overtrained and underconditioned.
Then again, if easy pace in this discussion means a conversational pace below lactate threshold but not the slowest training pace, then sure, easy pace can be faster than marathon pace.
You most likely have never had to deal with slower runners. Training theory is utter garbage in many cases like these. Slow marathon runners approaching the 4.5 - 5 hour ranges are perfectly capable of "easy runs" at ~10 minute pace. This is either extremely close to or faster than their actual marathon pace. For them, what makes the marathon difficult is the fact that it is 26.2 miles of continuous running. They aren't struggling to maintain their marathon pace. They're struggling just to finish.
Nope. I've trained lots of folks all over the spectrum, including folks in the 4-5+ range. The basic plan remains the same: easy runs are far below MP. What I hear you saying above is that people "are perfectly capable" of easy runs that are faster than marathon pace, which is of course true but totally beside the point. The coach's job is to get those fools to wise up, run the long runs slower, and work on speed so they can make ALL of their paces faster, training paces and marathon pace.
I've had this conversation 1000 times with slow runners who want to run long runs faster. The proof is incontrovertible: for folks who train like that, when they run the marathon, they crash before 26. Usually it's late teens to early 20's. The ones who want to improve then take the advice and start training properly.
Wonderin' wrote:
[quote]Wonderin' wrote:
I've had this conversation 1000 times with slow runners who want to run long runs faster. The proof is incontrovertible: .
Well you should do your long runs at marathon pace/effort. Canova has explain it here on this board numerous times. How does jogging twenty miles prepare you for the marathon? It doesn't, you have to not only train the distance, but also the pace for x amount of mileage.
Sand Dunes wrote:Well you should do your long runs at marathon pace/effort. Canova has explain it here on this board numerous times. How does jogging twenty miles prepare you for the marathon? It doesn't, you have to not only train the distance, but also the pace for x amount of mileage.You clearly have never trained properly for a marathon. 20 miles at MP in training is no joke, and no serious coach would ever recommend that session.
The upper range of the easy pace should be the first lactate/ventilary threshold. For trained runners, it should be sustainable for about four and a half hours. In other words, anything longer than 4:30 should be at easy pace, that includes MP for slow runners.
So how exactly is one supposed to start training in the first place if they can never run easy runs slower than MP?
If I am a brand new runner, I might not be capable of finishing a marathon at any pace. Are you telling me that I just can't start running at all, since I would be running all of my runs faster than marathon pace at the outset?
Kevin52 wrote:
Star wrote:
Are you saying they can't run 5 miles at 8 min pace on an easy day?
At that point it is not an easy run.
The correct answer to the original question is never, unless one is not training to race close to the best of their ability level.
I have run a 10k in 38 minutes this year, so 5 min/km feels really easy, but there is no way in hell I could run a marathon in 3,30.
Wonderin' wrote:
Seyta wrote:
You most likely have never had to deal with slower runners. Training theory is utter garbage in many cases like these. Slow marathon runners approaching the 4.5 - 5 hour ranges are perfectly capable of "easy runs" at ~10 minute pace. This is either extremely close to or faster than their actual marathon pace. For them, what makes the marathon difficult is the fact that it is 26.2 miles of continuous running. They aren't struggling to maintain their marathon pace. They're struggling just to finish.
Nope. I've trained lots of folks all over the spectrum, including folks in the 4-5+ range. The basic plan remains the same: easy runs are far below MP. What I hear you saying above is that people "are perfectly capable" of easy runs that are faster than marathon pace, which is of course true but totally beside the point. The coach's job is to get those fools to wise up, run the long runs slower, and work on speed so they can make ALL of their paces faster, training paces and marathon pace.
I've had this conversation 1000 times with slow runners who want to run long runs faster. The proof is incontrovertible: for folks who train like that, when they run the marathon, they crash before 26. Usually it's late teens to early 20's. The ones who want to improve then take the advice and start training properly.
You´re an idiot. The correlation between easy pace and marathon pace IS NOT the same for slower runners as it is for faster runners. Like sombody else said: for fast runners the difficult thing is to maintain a somewhat hard pace for two hours. For a slow runner the difficulty is just to finish.
well,, wrote:
You´re an idiot. The correlation between easy pace and marathon pace IS NOT the same for slower runners as it is for faster runners. Like sombody else said: for fast runners the difficult thing is to maintain a somewhat hard pace for two hours. For a slow runner the difficulty is just to finish.
I'll avoid calling you names, and we can play the "somebody else said" thing all day. As somebody else said, if you run your easy run at MP, you're going to be spent. Damaged. The harm from needing time to heal negates the benefit of the hard run, and it is a hard run regardless of whether you're a slower or faster runner.
How many people here are regularly running 20's at MP? I'm betting zero. The same is true for slow runners, and for runners who haven't yet built up the endurance to go 10-15-20, etc. When you're well trained to go 26, no matter what pace, you can certainly incorporate marathon pace into your long runs, and maybe even do a 20-miler at MP, but then it's no longer a run at easy pace.
So, going back to the original question, the answer is never. Run your easy runs easy. Long and slow. Slower than MP. There are lots of other days in the week for the other forms of training.
Wonderin' wrote:
Never. The premise isn't correct. Your "easy" pace should not be faster than your marathon pace.
You may be mixing up that one's marathon pace will get faster as the person's conditioning improves. That's different. The easy pace should still be below marathon pace, no matter how much faster MP gets with improved conditioning.
Absolutely incorrect on the fundamental level, but somewhat true in practice.
Easy pace is based on a percentage of ones threshold. The shorter the duration of the event, the greater percent of threshold that can be maintained. Conversely, as an event gets longer the percentage of threshold that can be sustained decreases. 2 hour guys race marathons at around 90% of threshold. For a 3 hour guy, this is probably closer to 85% of threshold. Get out to 5 hours and you're looking at 80-85%.
Upper end of easy pace is around 75%, but somewhere around 65-70% is going to be a pace that is relatively easy day in, day out.
So, even at 5 hours, a well trained runner is still holding 80-85% of threshold. In order to get to a marathon time where easy pace = MP, you'd probably be looking at a minimum of 8-12 hours, and quite possibly even longer.
If I were trying to run a marathon in 2:40, I wouldn’t be running at 6:08 pace for easy runs.
Trypsin wrote:
I have been pondering this one for a long time. At what point is your easy pace your marathon pace?
At the point where you start stagnating. Does that answer it clearly?
PrZ wrote:
If I were trying to run a marathon in 2:40, I wouldn’t be running at 6:08 pace for easy runs.
Can we talk about that Instagram model who was running ALL of her "easy runs" at 6:50-ish pace who recently ran 3:01?
That being said, I'm training for the marathon right now. I'm a high 37's 10K runner and I'm quickly finding out that running everyday at 7:20-7:30 pace on higher mileage has prevented me from doing well at my 2 workouts per week. At 7:20 pace, I have nothing left for my quality days, so I have to run well over 8 to 8:30 pace just to keep afloat.
A high 37 10K is equivilant to a 2:58-ish marathon....but I can tell you that I can't break 90 minutes for a half and never officially have.
Kipchoge marathon pace is around 2:55 min per k. He’s easy pace is around 4 min per k
you guys are really dumb
Star wrote:
they train like anyone else wrote:
Knowing some roughly 3:30 marathoners, this is not the case.
Are you saying they can't run 5 miles at 8 min pace on an easy day?
Yes, they would gravitate to 8:30 - 9:00.
As some have noted, for an individual who is training with any level of serious at all for a marathon, MP is always faster than easy pace. For most trained runners who have put in the mileage, easy pace is usually somewhere around 1:30 to 2:00 minutes per mile slower than marathon pace.
However, I would currently be physically incapable of running 26.2 Miles at any pace (I never run more than 8 miles anymore). Even at my current easy pace, my muscles would probably cramp up/lock up prior to 20 Miles even if my heart rate was not elevated to what science would say my MP is.
I am a slower runner, approximately 7:00 MP at the moment. Most of my easy runs are in the 8:45 range.
A marathon is a race and is hard work (it should be anyway). I couldn't fathom running a race at my easy pace, and couldn't fathom running MP all the time in training.
At 10 min miles I guess I can see some equivalence between easy pace and MP, but we are now talking about a pace which is basically a fast walk and not even really running.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Rest in Peace Adrian Lehmann - 2:11 Swiss marathoner. Dies of heart attack.
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
I think Letesenbet Gidey might be trying to break 14 this Saturday
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!