When does easy pace=MP?

I would say it is 3:30 marathon, mostly because people think they need to run 8 min/mile on every run. Should be in the 4-6 hour marathon range though.

Never. The premise isn't correct. Your "easy" pace should not be faster than your marathon pace.

You may be mixing up that one's marathon pace will get faster as the person's conditioning improves. That's different. The easy pace should still be below marathon pace, no matter how much faster MP gets with improved conditioning.

one way to word this would be "for how long could you sustain your average easy run pace?" and that amount of time would be your marathon time to answer the question.

having run some ultramarathons, I'd say that I could run my average easy run pace of 7:15/mi for close to 50 miles. Call it 50.0 and that's 6 hours and 2.5 minutes. So in theory, if I were a 6:02 marathoner my easy pace might equal my race pace. The charts say my easy run pace should be more like 6:45, which I could probably sustain for 40 miles. That's 4.5 hours, which is a much more reasonable answer than 6:02.

I agree that it depends much more on experience than actual speed. My first marathon (had only been running less than 12mo) was 3:10, about 7:15/mi, which was actually a little slower than I did my easy runs. My mom runs a 4:05ish marathon which is exactly her easy run pace, although she doesn't do serious training.

so anyway, I'll say a 4:30 marathon

My favorite thing is when Marathon PR time=Half Marathon PR time x 2. This pace also happens to be their pace for every single run.

hamburgler wrote:

I would say it is 3:30 marathon, mostly because people think they need to run 8 min/mile on every run. Should be in the 4-6 hour marathon range though.

I think that's the right answer.

If someone who runs 3:30 for a marathon goes for a five mile easy run, they would do it in 40 minutes.

Anyone who jogs a marathon, their marathon pace is their easy pace.

Star wrote:

hamburgler wrote:

I would say it is 3:30 marathon, mostly because people think they need to run 8 min/mile on every run. Should be in the 4-6 hour marathon range though.

I think that's the right answer.

If someone who runs 3:30 for a marathon goes for a five mile easy run, they would do it in 40 minutes.

Knowing some roughly 3:30 marathoners, this is not the case.

I think the answer to this question has less to do with your marathon time, and more to do with how many miles you run per week. For example, if you average over 10 miles per day, you are most likely not going to be able sustain doing that at marathon pace or faster. However if you only average 4-5 miles a day, you could fairly easily do that at marathon pace.

Wonderin' wrote:

Never. The premise isn't correct. Your "easy" pace should not be faster than your marathon pace.

You may be mixing up that one's marathon pace will get faster as the person's conditioning improves. That's different. The easy pace should still be below marathon pace, no matter how much faster MP gets with improved conditioning.

No, the premise is absolutely correct. For the overwhelming majority of marathoners, just completing 26 miles is difficult, and the only way they can do it is by running significantly slower than their average easy run pace. My first marathon was much slower than I was running on my easy days, and, no, I wasn't running my easy days too hard. I was entirely conversational and comfortable.

they train like anyone else wrote:

Star wrote:

I think that's the right answer.

If someone who runs 3:30 for a marathon goes for a five mile easy run, they would do it in 40 minutes.

Knowing some roughly 3:30 marathoners, this is not the case.

Are you saying they can't run 5 miles at 8 min pace on an easy day?

Wonderin' wrote:

Never. The premise isn't correct. Your "easy" pace should not be faster than your marathon pace.

What if someone simply isn't capable of finishing a marathon? Does that person just not have an easy run pace? There is no easy run pace that I can run that is slower than "DNF" (which is essentially just a pace of infinity).

In theory, MP is never easy pace, at least for training purposes. There are training programs for 5k and 10k that want you to run at marathon pace, the theoretical one. However, as others have said, plenty of runners would have trouble with the distance and break down--not in terms of aerobic ability but legs giving out after X miles.

I would imagine it's somewhere around 10-11 minute miles, in terms of actual marathon pace. That is someone's easy pace is 10 min miles and because of fatigue that becomes his/her actual MP. I would imagine this runner is doing less than 40 mpw and he/she would find out these limits when doing some of the few 14-20 mile runs in whatever plan.

Trypsin wrote:

I have been pondering this one for a long time. At what point is your easy pace your marathon pace?

To give a little bit of perspective, a beginning runner who runs 40 mpw in preparing for a marathon will likely run slower in the marathon than they do for an “easy” 5 mile run, while an elite runner whose marathon pace is 5:00m/mile likely runs slower than that for easy runs.

What is the equivalence point? When is your easy pace your marathon pace? Is it a weekly mileage? Is it a marathon PR?

Easy. 50 mpw. For every 1 mile you go over 50, you add 0.5% to marathon pace for “easy pace”. For every 5 miles under 50, you subtract 1% for “easy pace”. This holds true for most people between 25 to 100 mpw.

30 mpw runner with a 4:00 PR. MP = 9:10, Easy pace = 8:48

90 mpw runner with 2:37 PR. MP = 6:00, Easy pace = 7:12

Also - I just pulled this out of my ass and it is nonsense. That is all.

800 dude wrote:

Wonderin' wrote:

Never. The premise isn't correct. Your "easy" pace should not be faster than your marathon pace.

You may be mixing up that one's marathon pace will get faster as the person's conditioning improves. That's different. The easy pace should still be below marathon pace, no matter how much faster MP gets with improved conditioning.

No, the premise is absolutely correct. For the overwhelming majority of marathoners, just completing 26 miles is difficult, and the only way they can do it is by running significantly slower than their average easy run pace. My first marathon was much slower than I was running on my easy days, and, no, I wasn't running my easy days too hard. I was entirely conversational and comfortable.

Maybe this is a terminology mixup. By easy pace, I'm referring to long run pace, long slow distance pace, LSD pace. If that's what you mean, too, then I'm really lost. Are there really training programs -- published or coached -- that have people running their slowest runs faster than marathon pace? That makes no sense. The benefits of the long run would largely be lost, and the person would be overtrained and underconditioned.

Then again, if easy pace in this discussion means a conversational pace below lactate threshold but not the slowest training pace, then sure, easy pace can be faster than marathon pace.

Star wrote:

they train like anyone else wrote:

Knowing some roughly 3:30 marathoners, this is not the case.

Are you saying they can't run 5 miles at 8 min pace on an easy day?

At that point it is not an easy run.

The correct answer to the original question is never, unless one is not training to race close to the best of their ability level.

800 dude wrote:... My first marathon was much slower than I was running on my easy days, and, no, I wasn't running my easy days too hard. I was entirely conversational and comfortable.

If your marathon pace was slower than your easy run pace, then you were not properly prepared for the marathon. I'm sure if you told us your 1500/mile time and marathon at that time we would see a very significant discrepancy (i.e., your 1500 time would suggest a MUCH faster marathon). Am I right?

New runners, or experienced runners with poorly trained aerobic systems, will find their M-pace (i.e. the pace they are capable of finishing a marathon) to be slower than a legitimately easy pace. For a more experienced or better aerobically trained runner, M-pace will be at least 45 seconds faster per mile than a legitimate easy pace. I think if you check Daniels charts, for most people his E-pace is about 30-45s/mile or more slower than M-pace. In my upbringing, when fit I was instructed to never run faster than about 60-90s/mile slower than M-pace on my easy days. But of course at that time my M-pace was fast (for me), pretty tight to my HM and 10k pace.

You most likely have never had to deal with slower runners. Training theory is utter garbage in many cases like these. Slow marathon runners approaching the 4.5 - 5 hour ranges are perfectly capable of "easy runs" at ~10 minute pace. This is either extremely close to or faster than their actual marathon pace. For them, what makes the marathon difficult is the fact that it is 26.2 miles of continuous running. They aren't struggling to maintain their marathon pace. They're struggling just to finish.

Seyta wrote:...You most likely have never had to deal with slower runners. Training theory is utter garbage in many cases like these. Slow marathon runners approaching the 4.5 - 5 hour ranges are perfectly capable of "easy runs" at ~10 minute pace. This is either extremely close to or faster than their actual marathon pace. For them, what makes the marathon difficult is the fact that it is 26.2 miles of continuous running. They aren't struggling to maintain their marathon pace. They're struggling just to finish.

I've trained some faster runners and some slower runners, and trained with a wide variety. Your statements are generally correct if we are talking about untrained slow runners. But a runner with relatively little talent who trains well and reaches close to their potential (be it, maybe, 3-high to 4-mid) will still find, just like faster runners, that well-trained M-pace is considerably faster than a legitimate easy pace.

But of course, a poorly trained marathon runner, meaning one who has not prepared deliberately and well (and specifically, for the marathon), will in most cases not be able to run 26 miles continuously as fast as they can run their daily shorter runs at a conversational easy pace.

Never. Easy pace should = your "ultra" marathon pace.