HELP ME RUN A SUB 18 5K

embraceuncertainty wrote:

dont over complicate wrote:

I’m not but I have some elite friends that I learned that “positive thinking” from. You’ll never see an elite say their 13:10 is fast. They WILL say that they could improve, could do better etc. a difference between us and them is they are positive and age group hobby runners aren’t.

I am only 15:50 right now but i am improving and only been in the sport for 4 years from scratch.

I bet you could break 14 if you really put your mind to it.

You're making yourself look like a moron with the old "So, what are YOUR PRs?" game. It makes it obvious you have nothing to offer.

The reality is, he is right....there is no point worrying about workouts and overcomplicating things if the OP is running 20-25 miles a week. If he or she cared about beating their PR, they would simply run more.

lecarmat wrote:

EP, your saying 90 minutes for long run... 9 minute pace?

I'm a 54 YO, trying to get under 18 5K (or 38 10K), ran 18:54 with 25/30 miles a week but no real long run....

Pace is determined by your ability. At a 19 minute 5k, 9 is probably a bit slow. Probably more in 8 to 8:30 range is right.

You can certainly run these times wothout a long run. However, OP wants to know where he can improve the most, and its clear that it is in his aerobic ability. Nobody will come even close to their potential without a long run for the 5k. Its not the full, ie you dont need to go for 20+, but look at any halfway decent 5k training program and it will include a long run.

Andymash wrote:

About 4 years ago I ran 18:12 . (I was only running 20-25 miles a week but also swimming and cycling) Last year I made a serious attempt to pr but the best I could come up with was 18:38 . I've decided to up the miles and I've been doing about 40 per week for the past 2 months. Last month I ran a 18:22 5k ( but the coarse was short by .05 ) .

My key workouts:

12x400 1 minute standing rest , I've got it down to an 81 sec. Avg .

2 x 2miles 6:15-6-20 pace

I was doing my "easy runs " at a 7:30-7:45 pace but after reading some of these threads I've slowed it down to about an 8:30 .

Next 5k is June 4th what are your thoughts am I ready for sub 18? ?

I'm in the same boat as that was my goal at the start of the year (would ideally like to be ~17:45). So far I've done two with a 18:23 and 18:15...also this year 15km 58:50 and 10km at 38:30. I increased my weekly distance to 60-80km a week (last year was ~40km and thought that would be enough to push me from my last year PB of 18:38 but so far not enough.

I typically have one interval day (anything from 16 x 200m to 4 x 1,600m) and one hill sprints day along with my other runs.

I'm not sure if my intervals are ideal for 5km or right pace but lets say I do 6 x 1km (at 3:20) with 2 minutes rest. Should I try to increase pace or lower rest?

Try periodization, don’t just grind the same workouts over and over again. A really simple progression would be 4 weeks for building easy mileage, four weeks to add tempo runs and faster runs, 4 weeks to do intervals at 5k pace, and a week or two to taper down before the race.

If you can run 6x1k at 3:20 with only 2 minute rest you should easily be able to break 17:45. Assuming this workout is done during a normal heavy volume week with no rest beforehand.

it was done after my rest day but during weeks of 70km. And yeah, I feel my workouts are usually a lot better than my races. Maybe its just my race prep or warm-up is off

my 2c wrote:

OP, there's an obvious gap in your training program. I like the 2 x 2 workout, but you're doing your 12 x 400 workout at mile pace. That means you're doing no 5K pace work (or for Daniels aficionados, no vO2max workouts). If your goal race is a 5K, then replace the 12 x 400 workout with 6 x 800, 5 x 1000, 4 x 1200 @ 5K pace as one of your key workouts.

I agree.

OP, I'm trying to get back to racing about one minute faster than you over 5k (hoping to break 17 early this summer), so I'd figure your workout paces should be about 20 seconds/mile slower than mine (very roughly, and that's assuming I am doing anything right).

With 1:00 standing rest I would hope to run 10x400 in the low 70s, so your 80-second pace for that workout checks out in my view.

Tempo pace for me is about 5:50-6:00 mile for a four-miler. That 2x2 sounds great and I will try that! I also like things like 4-6xMile, or 3/2/1 mile at tempo pace (~1:00 rest) to break it up mentally once in a while and run a bit quicker than would probably happen in a straight tempo.

What I am not seeing from you is more race-specific workouts totaling ~5k of running at ~5k pace: 8x600, 6x800, 5x1000, 4x1200, 3x1600 with 1:00-2:00 rest. (Maybe 3:00 rest for the 1600 version, which is really taxing.) I would build some of this in, definitely.

Also, don't be afraid to take a bit less volume and a bit more rest than the above ideas and run similar things at 3k pace or so: 3-4x1000 with 2:30 rest is a great VO2max pace hit and excellent stimulus for developing your 5k ability.

Keep us updated!

Easy Peasy wrote:

You're obviously trolling. You didn't barely run 2 hour long runs, break 2:30, and not make a team. I guess you would have been a 2:15 runner if you actually trained properly for the marathon huh?

No 5K runner is going to even remotely reach their potential by running 6-7 mile long runs. 2 hour long runs are a staple for everything from the 5K to HM for full potential, but a bare minimum of 90 minutes is certainly the case for a 5K.

Go easy like your name suggests...did you actually 'read' what I said.

Yep...I like to troll, because I only have 40 yrs marathon running experience ;-)

I was a hack at school, just average, never made the school aths team, even though I tried, there were athletic studs way better...so that is an indication of natural talent.

10yrs later I broke 2:30 for the marathon. My max weekly mileage was 120, but mostly 100- 110, because I am not bio-mechanically perfect to 'just do more mileage'.

My max long runs were around 32 to 34...work it out, that is barely over 2hrs at the pace I was training.

The OP may not 'reach his potential' but his question is not that. Read it again

he has already run 18:12 off 40km/wk with some cycling etc, so no structure at all and he just wants to run 18:00 with better structure, now that he is doing more and not running as fast as before, we have people telling him " hey that is mile type training' ...do this progression or that" or "hey, you are running too little , do more mileage'".

It seems on LRC the answer to everything is "do more mileage", or "Do Daniels/Pfitzinger/MacMillan etc"

We are not talking about rocket science here...the main factors making you run faster and further are more 'consistent' training and being more efficient. Everything on top of that is icing.

If 'more mileage/speed etc' gives you less consistency due to injuries/fatigue...don't do it, adapt your training, we are not equal and there are many ways to skin the same cat.

...and to follow on from above as a general observation:

If LRC were a building renovations forum it would go like this:

A:"Hey, this door is too wide for the opening"

B: "Let me see...your hammer is too small, use this sledgehammer"

..bang, bang , bang

A: "hey, I've broken that f***in door jamb"

B: "But it now fits , right?"

More mileage always seems to be used like this proverbial sledgehammer that either works on 10% of the bio-mechanically sound runners, while the rest just get injured

For the rest of the season focus on upping your mileage as much as you can without getting injured. Build up your long run, 1hr.30 will do but longer is good. Have three or four key workouts that you alternate between.

12X400 w 1min rec.

3X1mile w400m rec jog

steep hill work

20-40min sustained tempo)

Try to get your mileage up to 100km/week. Next year (january) use Daniels training program. For sure you'll break 18 min. Wish you good luck!

Ok never actually broke 18 for 5k but ran a 36.xx 10k and a 5.04 1600m.

Not getting into the talent thing but I'll say this I had to work bloody hard for those times. I loved short sharp stuff...i loved 400m intervanls and going out for 4 mile easy runs but let me state this...I have never improved more in my life than when I added volume....more mileage, longer tempo runs, longer intervals. I literally could not believe how much I improved.

Specific tips I would give as follows:

1. Stop thinking about easy run pace. Don't consciously try to run them fast or slow or at any specific pace. In fact there is a lot to be said for running them without a watch (but I like to see my pace). Just run...some days you will feel good and pace will be fast, some days you will be beat up and pace will be slow and some days your legs are so fvcked it's a gentle trot. Easy runs serve a range of purposes in a programme so don't stress it.

2. Run long intervals...800s are a good start but build to 1000s. For somebody running an 18 min 5k anything above 1000 is fvcking tough and I personally would not recommend. For me 1k is a good sweet spot for an 18min 5k runner and I am also a big big fan of doing more than the target distance i.e. 6,7 or even 8 reps for a 5k runner.

3. Tempos - Not an expert but for me longer at a slower pace beats short ones at a faster pace....30-40 min tempos worked for me...those last 10 minutes really build strength and grit. Use daniels pace tables to adjust pacing.

4. Long run - 10-15 miles for 18min 5k runner I think is solid....you are not training for a marathon so don't see long runs as be all and end all.

OP - this is the winning answer. Read this post over and over, follow the plan, and you will see immense gains.

WOW !! I had no idea I'd get so much feedback from this forum so I just want to say thanks to everyone !

So I should have been a little more clear when I said 12x400 was a key workout I was just giving an example...

I also do 6x800 , 5x1km , 16x200 , bridge repeats etc. It's been a couple years since I've done 1mile repeats so I guess I need to bring that workout back into the mix based on what you guys are saying...

I did 6x800 a couple weeks ago and every lap was 2:52 , I did a 2 minute jog rest in between.

I guess what I really need to know is more specifics on exactly to structure the whole training plan . How many times a week should I be doing speed work? Once , twice ?

Do I always do an easy run the day following the harder workouts? And how long should easy runs Be?

How do I know when to , or how often do I just take the whole day off and not run at all ?

Run 5 or 6

days per week ?

How long should the warm ups be ? 2-4 miles ? Easy or moderate pace ?

Thanks again guys!

Check out Daniel's training programs. They are tried and true. Build up as much easy running as you can w/ a long run/week, then eventually add a couple of workouts per week.

good luck!

It will be close.

I'd like to see you be able to hold your aerobic power over longer reps lengths (like 1k - 1 mi) and at least over 7500-8000m of volume to make sure you are able to hold that power over the 5k distance. Holding time-under-tension over 2:00+ for an aerobic power workout is really what starts to develop the VO2max, which is what you want for this kind of workout. So the minimum distance for your 5k pace work should be 600m.

1) Yes your easy runs should be 1 min/mile slower: Around 8:30 is good. And make sure your long run is +90 minutes.

2) Long tempos are needed as others say. 40 mins @ 6:30-6:40

3) Do 25 mins worth of 1K-1M repeats @ 10K-pace. Eg 6x1000m in 3:50 with 200m jog repeats.

4) Do pickups several times pr week at the end of sessions. 4 x 30 sec @ mile pace. long recovery.

Do this and get stronger. You only need 4-6 weeks in the end with 5K pace work to be ready to smash 18.

In other words. Make sure to get a grip on periodization in your training.

Good luck.