Road Racing and Training Thread. Week Ending May 6 2018

Decided I'm just going to rest. This was the last week of Daniels' phase III, so I'll rest and going into phase IV hopefully feeling totally better. I'm sure I've lost some fitness, but ideally it won't be hard to recover. It was super annoying though since this was going to be my first 40 mile week since returning to running. I didn't keep track of my mileage in high school, but my coach sucked and I doubt I ever ran much more than 40 miles a week

M30

PRs: 17:45 (2018), 1:27:00 (2017), 2:57:07 (2018)

Next race: local half on 5/26

Goal race: half in September, Boston 2019

week-3 post marathon for me, managed to get in a solid vo2max and tempo workout. upcoming half marathon is in three weeks, so I don't have time to waste. nominally, I should be able to set a substantial PR, but the course is truly hilly so let's see (~700ft elevation gain).

M - 7 easy

T - 5x1000m @3:30 with 400m jogs, total 9 miles

W - 6 easy

T - 3x3200m @6:10/mi w 400m jogs, total 11 miles

F - off

Sat - off (played soccer)

Su - 13 miles

Total: 46 miles

@rrr: sounds tough, kudos for finishing the race. hope it doesn't set you back!

@Allen: nice 2-mile workout there as well

@or: congrats on PR!

@GalenRupp: congrats, you're a 2:06 guy now!

@Asbel Kiprop: sad, very sad.

have a good week, happy training and racing!

RRR - Solid spring of racing & get healthy man!

consistency - jealous of the mountain biking

TDR - I like the alterations

OR - congrats on the 10k PR & AG win. You beat my PR by 9sec so I'm coming for you, haha

Allen - Solid week, You've made huge fitness gains the last couple of months

sub6 - Keep an eye on those niggles

Smoove- Keep building and listen to your PT!

GMAFP - Nice MP work and trail running is good for the soul

AJ - Living up to your name I see

Pappy - AJ doesn't settle for plan B. Boston or bust

DB - You just hopped right back into things with that 10k

Puto - Nice "recovery" week after the half

R4F - Excited to see what you do in your summer races

Still Improving - I've done that before, try to replace some running with hard biking and the quads always take a beating

James - Smart to nix the 5k when feeling under the weather

avg_joe - Two solid workouts

23yo M, 6' 150#

Goal - 800-3k in June

Next race: 5k in late May/early June?

Pulled my calf a week out from my 8k last week. Turns out racing 8k in flats doesn't help. That plus quad soreness from some big downhills in the race had me keeping things low key this week.

M: 9 w/ 2x(2x10" sprint, 2x(10" A run + 10" sprint), haven't done any speed endurance work in a month due to tweaking my hamstring and now calf. Tried complexing a drill with sprinting to get a speed endurance stimulus with less stress.

T: 9 was going to do 5x1k today but I felt really sore and sluggish so went easy instead. strength after (MB hop & throw/crawling, 1 arm DB snatch, bodyweight circuit (squat, 1L DL, trx pushup, row)

W: off

Th: 7 w/ 6x5" hill accels, 5x10" hill A drills

F: 4 was going to do an 800 paced workout but my L calf is sore still. strength after (jumps/crawling, trap bar high pull, lunges/pull ups, 1A DB push press/bw squats)

S: 9 w/ 8x15" stride, 30" easy, then 5k cruise in 20:25, first hot day this year and 75 during this run. I felt it.

Did 1 hr hiking Saturday night and 3 hrs on Sunday morning.

Going to play this next week by ear but I'm hoping to go hard as the following week I'm camping and won't do much running. Then hopefully a couple of good weeks before summer track series starts.

GFMAH - I don’t think anyone mentioned it when you first hopped on here, but your handle is a Jonathan Richman reference (“Roadrunner”)?

I recently read Lydiard's run to the top and Daniels' Running Formula and wanted to point out how similar they seem to be.

Lydiard

10 weeks marathon phase

4 weeks hill phase

10 weeks track interval workouts using time trials to develop race feel

Daniels

6 weeks base focusing on building easy volume & tempos

6 weeks reps, Daniels recommends using hills if available

6 weeks 3k-5k pace intervals

6 weeks race specific

Biggest difference in my opinion is that in the 1st training phase Lydiard would have me running a lot at 6:15-7:00 pace for 3/4 to 1/4 effort runs where Daniels would have me focus on running 5:50-6:10 and then 7:00-7:30 pace.

Pewow- thanks bro. Actually the issues I had feel good today. Just general trail mile soreness. I’m hoping that race built up some mental toughness. Hardest thing to finish running wise ever.

In regards to mountain biking here is a cool story about the town in which I abide.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2295486/single-track-minds

Great place to visit.

jewbacca wrote:

Consistency - I'm no expert with a sample size of 1 marathon, but I was thinking along the same lines as sub-6:00. Marathon pace is virtually 100% aerobic, so you don't accumulate the waste products or the burn of a 5k. I had the same sensation of feeling aerobically okay that you described. I had plenty of breath to yell at HM'ers who exited their course in the final mile for selfies and strayed directly in my path. But my muscles were toast. Training volume helps improve the body's ability to take the pounding.

Consistency, caloric intake during the race is also a factor.

too hot wrote:

jewbacca wrote:

Consistency - I'm no expert with a sample size of 1 marathon, but I was thinking along the same lines as sub-6:00. Marathon pace is virtually 100% aerobic, so you don't accumulate the waste products or the burn of a 5k. I had the same sensation of feeling aerobically okay that you described. I had plenty of breath to yell at HM'ers who exited their course in the final mile for selfies and strayed directly in my path. But my muscles were toast. Training volume helps improve the body's ability to take the pounding.

Consistency, caloric intake during the race is also a factor.

+1

You bet.

outsiderunner wrote:

too hot wrote:

Consistency, caloric intake during the race is also a factor.

+1

You bet.

Shoulda had a Coca Cola before trying to out kick John!

CokeIsKey wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

+1

You bet.

Shoulda had a Coca Cola before trying to out kick John!

You’re right!

Male, 50 yo, 5’7”, 127 lbs

Goals: Build a Solid Base

M: Rest

T: Rest

W: 60 m 147 bpm (Road, 170 ft)

T: 75 m 148 bpm (Road, 210 ft)

F: 83 m 153 bpm (Road, 120 ft, w/ macbook in backpack)

S: 50 m 144 bpm (Road, 450 ft)

S: 86 m 148 bpm (Road, 150 ft)

Total: 5:54 - 38 miles - 1243 ft

After two days off, I came back slowly this week, feeling a little fatigue in the legs, but nothing like “marathon” fatigue. On my Friday run home, I developed a shockingly powerful pain around the right knee, the repaired knee. Felt like “shin splint” pain, but not down on the shin, when I landed on the right leg. WTF. Slowed, it faded. Picked back up and WHAM excruciating. WTF. This was a commute run home, and I resigned myself to hopping on the subway. Canceled the workout on the Garmin, started a slow jog to the nearest station. Then it completely disappeared. The pain, I mean. The station is still there. I finished the run and ran on both Saturday and Sunday (IN NEW SHOES) without issue.

RRR: Once again, I say RESPECT. You've got it where it counts. I want you on my team.

consistency: Many more qualified guys here to advise you, but I vote for "all of the above." I am totally "pansyphobic" towards myself after knowing in my heart that I wussed out when I should have cowboyed up. Hard workouts breed confidence. Confidence fosters audacity in workouts.

TDR: I like the 5k "process" goal... looking forward to see how that translates onto the clock!

OR: Great job!

Allen: Looks like a good week. How does the LT pace feel?

Sub 6:00: Sounds like you had a trying week. You'll bounce back!

Smoove: So happy to see the numbers coming back up for you. It's a give-and-take thing. As you take back your accustomed mileage, you'll give back a few of those beers. Though beer is soooooo good after running in the summertime....

GFMAH: Congrats on the "long" long run.

AJ You deserve a bit of a breather. I heard that someone whispered to Rupp that AJ was lined up in the second row somewhere and it forced him to bring his "A" game.

Pappy: One knee at a time, my friend.

DB Nice race, given the circumstances!

PutoMiudo: That's a good post-race week!

Runningforfun: Glad you're enjoying a relaxing week. Looking forward to following your summer series of races.

StillImproving: Two weeks out, right? How are you feeling about your original three goals? Plans for a taper?

James: Hope you'll be 100% soon!

a_a_Joe: Solid week!

pewow: A good week even with the calf issue. Enjoy the camping!

Good week but pretty tired.

Sunday AM 9 w 5k race in 16:59 PM 11.5 moderate (first 10.5 progressive avg around 6:15)

Monday AM 5 easy PM 9.5

Tuesday AM 10 w 15x (1min on, 1min off) PM 11 with 10 @ 57:40 progressive on the treadmill

Wednesday AM 5 slow PM 9

Thursday AM moderate 7 PM easy 6.5

Friday AM 8 with 24min tempo PM 9

Saturday AM 9 easy PM Rest!

Total: 110

Last four weeks have been 113-125-122-110, and so i think the miles caught up to me this week. Probably the unplanned two hard efforts on Tuesday also did me in (didn't mean to hit the treadmill so hard in the evening, but I suppose it was one of those days).

Just did 19.5 on a very hilly course this morning, and probably taking this evening off too. Not sure how things are progressing, but i'll probably try for 120 this week before taking a bit of a down week next week as I have some academic obligations and perhaps it will help me absorb some of the training before getting back at it.

pewow wrote:

Lydiard

10 weeks marathon phase

4 weeks hill phase

10 weeks track interval workouts using time trials to develop race feel

Daniels

6 weeks base focusing on building easy volume & tempos

6 weeks reps, Daniels recommends using hills if available

6 weeks 3k-5k pace intervals

6 weeks race specific

Biggest difference in my opinion is that in the 1st training phase Lydiard would have me running a lot at 6:15-7:00 pace for 3/4 to 1/4 effort runs where Daniels would have me focus on running 5:50-6:10 and then 7:00-7:30 pace.

Too hot inspired me to pull out my copy of Livingstone's book as it's been a few years since I read it, and I just finished it this weekend. I agree that the training I've done following Daniels is, in my mind, very much in the spirit of Lydiard according to what Livingstone describes. Daniels does recommend starting reps much earlier, while Livingstone is strictly opposed to doing anything anaerobic (aside from strides/bursts of less than 10s) during the long base phase.

Since Lydiard seemed to shy away from set schedules, I might write his "program" as a set of progressing principles:

1) Lots of aerobic running at varied intensities with importance on the long run

2) Resistance training

3) Add in anaerobic work, generally progressing from longer/slower intervals to shorter/faster with plenty of rest and plenty of aerobic runs between sessions

4) Run short burst strides throughout

I also see a big difference in the way anaerobic work is structured. Daniels mixes up the paces early and then gets more race-specific later, while Lydiard seemed progress workout paces while mixing in race-specific work. I may be misunderstanding that.

Too hot, I'd be interested in your take on how Lydiard and Daniels mesh -- or don't mesh. There's a lot that I got from my latest read-through. Specifically that I want to do more variation in my base phase intensities and dedicate more effort to hill and resistance training. I'm also not sure if I'm understanding the progressing anaerobic work properly. My college coach structured our program loosely on Lydiard. Our first team workout was 6 x 2k cutdowns working down to 10k pace. Each subsequent workout was slightly less volume at a slightly faster pace, to the point of 8 x 600m working down to 3k pace the week of regionals. This is my only experience in a Lydiard-based program, though in retrospect I'm not sure if that's how Lydiard would have done it.

jewbacca wrote:

My college coach structured our program loosely on Lydiard. Our first team workout was 6 x 2k cutdowns working down to 10k pace. Each subsequent workout was slightly less volume at a slightly faster pace, to the point of 8 x 600m working down to 3k pace the week of regionals. This is my only experience in a Lydiard-based program, though in retrospect I'm not sure if that's how Lydiard would have done it.

Should've mentioned this was XC.

I'm returning to post on this thread after being away for several years. I stopped posting when I was injured. Looking at it again just now, I realize how helpful and interesting it is to read about your training. I'm age 50 and hope to run between 2:51-55 in a marathon at the end of this month. I've averaged 78 mi. per week since the beginning of the year. I live and train at altitude, 7000ft., where nothing is flat and where paces seem to be about 10-20 seconds slower than what I would do at low elevation. When I was recovering from injury, I acquired the odd habit of running doubles every day, even if one run is only a slow mile. It seems to be beneficial, if only because it keeps me from sitting around too much and helps me stay consistent.

Mon.: 1mi./ 8mi.

Tues.: 4mi./ 7mi. with 3mi. intervals (@ ~5:57 per. ave)

Wed.: 3mi. / 10mi.

Thurs.: 3mi. / 1mi.

Fri.: 22mi. (7:47) / 1mi.

Sat.: 10mi./ 1mi.

Sun.: 11mi. with 6mi. tempo (6:37)/ 3mi.

Week: 85mi. total

I confess I still have some difficulty on reading your workouts with the bpm ahah. And nice one there with the macbook in the backpack!

I too have a knee pain. It is just an annoying pain but stops after I warm up. I'm gonna take a massage bc it is probably my ITB or my quads that are super sore and are upping the tension on my knee! I laughed with that disappearing station ahah

Male, 31, father of 2 young ones

Focus 5k/10k

PBs: 16:22/34:33

Next race: Mile on 9/5

M - 17k

T - 2000/5x500/5x400 (6:59 - 3' rest; 1:42/41/41/41/41 - 90" rest; 3' rest; 1:21/18/18/18/17 - 90" rest)

W - 12k

Th - off (scheduled)

F - off (work)

S - 5k race: 16:34, 1OA - 18k for the day

S - off (beer)

T - 64k

Tuesdays workout was very nice, I felt prepared for Saturday. Unfortunately, work came in the way later that week. Had to work until 2am Thursday, had a company event on Friday which lasted until 11pm and included a number of alcoholic beverages.

I am still very happy with the race and the time. Course is super flat, but windy. A group of three went ahead and were 10-15m in front of me. Went through 1k in 3:13 (tailwind), during the second km I decided to slowly bridge the gap, as shortly after 2k we turned into the wind. Right before the turnaround I catched up to the group. Unfortunately, 2of3 guys struggled to keep pace, and I immediately took over the lead and the last guy started to fade shortly thereafer. I tried to keep the gas on the pedal, the last k was tough as it was fully into the wind and had a slight incline.

Comments will follow later today.

pewow- Thanks very much. Hope your calf is okay. My left glute is tight/sore. Was getting this way a few days before the race this weekend. Enjoy the camping, and I wish you well with the summer track series.

The biggest difference from a macro point of view is the periodization scheme. Lydiard training is a linear scheme. The anaerobic work is held off until the very end.

Lydiard is certainly not for everybody. If you are meticulous about your paces or the type of person who feels the need to record every split or would rather be told how fast you need to run in a workout than "feel it out" then you will probably be disappointed. In the anaerobic phase, for example, Lydiard would say that it doesn't matter what flavor of workout you do as long as you've had enough by the time you decide to call it quits. He wouldn't even encourage you to time the workout.

Apart from the difference in mindset, there are certain runners who do not respond well to interval (V02 max type) training. These are the guys (or gals) who run very close to their PRs during a typical base phase or find that soon after they start incorporating lactate buffering style workouts, they're riding that slippery slope towards staleness and fatigue.

I could say a lot more about the Lydiard system if people are interested but note that there is also a legendary thread here on Letsrun comparing the two systems (Lydiard vs Daniels). Last week, HRE made a guest appearance on our thread. He was coached by Barry Magee, if I'm not mistaken.