Why do you title your heading "A Dark Day for the Sport"? It's a GOOD DAY when drugs cheats who profit immensely from their cheating are caught and hopefully, banned from the sport. Think of the non-dopers who lost medals, money, maybe even their careers because of dopers who tried to circumvent the (admittedly flawed) system.
Hopefully, that hypocrite Radcliffe will go down next.
Olympic and world champion Asbel Kiprop has tested positive
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Me thinks this is the last time we will see a fast time from young star Justus Soget.
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Down goes Kiprop.
It’s great/awful when any user is busted, but i wish it had been that POS Makhloufi.
The day is not yet done, however.
The Italian “coaches” are a cancer in the body of the sport. All of them. Complete liars and showmen, total scum.
These are dark days for the sport. -
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Down goes Kiprop.
It’s great/awful when any user is busted, but i wish it had been that POS Makhloufi.
The day is not yet done, however.
The Italian “coaches” are a cancer in the body of the sport. All of them. Complete liars and showmen, total scum.
These are dark days for the sport.
yes everybody know about macdaddy. but these are not dark days for the sport, track was always very shady, except for a couple of decades of somewhat fair play. but it is a lovely notion, fair play, i support it, maybe one day we'll see it. -
DHT123 wrote:
3) We have to look backwards before we go forwards. Without a Truth & Reconciliation council in athletics, the sport will not progress. Look at the list of Rosa athletes. Look at the old world records still standing. It's quite obvious that there has been massive amounts of doping and cheating in the past but without an incentive (or lack of punishment) to come clean, we will never clear anything up. We need to actively interrogate the champions and the times of the past. Anyone who has seen my posts know that my bugbear on this issue is Paula Radcliffe and the holes in her story surrounding the three dodgy test results in her career. To take one example, we're supposed to believe that after setting a world best time in the Great North Run, she is then so ill with 'food poisoning' she is given a course of antibiotics (ask your doctor how likely this is...) and is then so 'weak' due to this that she has a Hgb score of only 12.0.....but then manages to destroy the world class opposition in the world half marathon championships (13 days after the Great North Run and presumably still taking the antibiotics. Come ON! Are you serious? If this was a runner of another nationality we'd be laughing at this ridiculous story. Again, we need some journalists to do some good work and dig into these stories from the past and stop believing what they are told.
Interesting, I never heard that one (mind you I haven't read her biography). -
m767 wrote:
Why have you turned it in to a topic about race: white vs black.
Cos he's a good ol' boy from the US of A. -
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
DHT123 wrote:
3) We have to look backwards before we go forwards. Without a Truth & Reconciliation council in athletics, the sport will not progress. Look at the list of Rosa athletes. Look at the old world records still standing. It's quite obvious that there has been massive amounts of doping and cheating in the past but without an incentive (or lack of punishment) to come clean, we will never clear anything up. We need to actively interrogate the champions and the times of the past. Anyone who has seen my posts know that my bugbear on this issue is Paula Radcliffe and the holes in her story surrounding the three dodgy test results in her career. To [i]take one example, we're supposed to believe that after setting a world best time in the Great North Run, she is then so ill with 'food poisoning' she is given a course of antibiotics (ask your doctor how likely this is...) and is then so 'weak' due to this that she has a Hgb score of only 12.0.....but then manages to destroy the world class opposition in the world half marathon championships (13 days after the Great North Run and presumably still taking the antibiotics[/u]. Come ON! Are you serious? If this was a runner of another nationality we'd be laughing at this ridiculous story. Again, we need some journalists to do some good work and dig into these stories from the past and stop believing what they are told.
Interesting, I never heard that one (mind you I haven't read her biography).
The contradictions between her autobiography and what has subsequently come up around the flagged test results are the most interesting and most damning things around her story. She will never be done for the tests themselves, but the holes in her stories could still be her downfall if people actively pursued them. -
DHT123 wrote:
Great that he got popped, and as people posting here have noted, it gives more credence to the leaked Fancy Bears 'likely doping' list. Interesting to note that Kiprop was only 'passport suspicious' on that list, which is one notch down from the 'likely doping' rating, and didn't have as many stars next to his name and some others.......
Yes. They should all have been auto-banned.
DHT123 wrote:
Come ON! Are you serious? If this was a runner of another nationality we'd be laughing at this ridiculous story. Again, we need some journalists to do some good work and dig into these stories from the past and stop believing what they are told.
Well, we are laughing, aren't we.
As for athletes actively showing how clean they are: cf. Tyson Gay.
What could help (or, my wish list, if you want):
1) Real power to the ABP. Make a cut-off to auto ban the cheats (just like UCI wouldn't allow Hct > 50%).
2) Remove all this conflict-of-interest scenario. No more Americans in charge of American athletes, for example.
3) Remove the top of IAAF and WADA, and bring in new blood.
4) Criminalize doping. Have the cops search the camps as soon as one has 'passport suspicious'.
5) Stop this TUE misuse. Never ever allow "retroactive" TUEs.
6) Ban groups (Aden, Rosa, etc.) as soon as three athletes are caught.
7) Have a really independent investigation into IAAF/WADA (i.e., not one led by WADAs former president).
8) Change the contracts like in the TdF (pay back salary if caught cheating). -
DHT123 wrote:
The contradictions between her autobiography and what has subsequently come up around the flagged test results are the most interesting and most damning things around her story. She will never be done for the tests themselves, but the holes in her stories could still be her downfall if people actively pursued them.
Good point. That could help the sport too: journalists who go after the old suspects. But no one is interested. -
That's my boy.
Kenya should be banned like Russia. -
So, does Nick Willis get bumped up to 2008 Olympic Gold now?
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I'm sorry to say that everyone at the top pushes the acceptable and unacceptable legal limits. Micro dosing, flat out doping, etc. the world stage is a shame similar to pro cycling. Open your eyes. Athletes who will do anything to run better do. Is not just altitude tents, training at altitude, only some supplemts, unseated treadmills, etc. whatever they gets their hands on. Americans too
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Crickets chirp at night -- and since it was night, I was sleeping.
If you really ever understood some of what I was saying, I don't find "proof by example" very strong evidence of anything except for that individual example. It's not because we can add one more high profile example to a handful of other examples, that logical fallacies suddenly become valid arguments. Someone astutely said that the plural of anecdote is not proof.
I never denied that the faith in EPO is very strong, and can even reach the top. We can see by the number of athletes who point up to the sky, and make the cross sign, and other symbolic gestures, that even elite athletes make faith an important part of their lives.
It's unfortunate that a new high profile name is added to the list of doping positives. Either Kiprop, or someone around him, had faith in EPO (assuming Kiprop intentionally took EPO for performance), and it's also looking bad for the Rosa's, who, as the brojos put it, are either incompetent (for not managing their athletes with enough oversight), or complicit.
It's a real shame that they obviously did not read my "Closer look at performances in the EPO era" thread, as the 1500m is the one "distance" event which showed comparatively small progress in the EPO era, measured by both quantity and quality. Only 13 athletes ran faster than my pre-EPO threshold in the two decades of 1990-2009. Since the passing of the ABP, when you would expect EPO performances to decline, in only 9 years, the rate more than doubled, as 13 more have run faster, interestingly only at Monaco.
Two important questions for me:
1) When did he start? His last "fast" performance was three years ago in 2015. If we assume he doped in 2015 and before, and continued doping, then we are left with an awkward explanation for why his performances were so bad since, including Rio. If he only doped after, it would fit a pattern of an athlete having a couple years of disappointing performances, tempted to take something to help restore his previous capability. Maybe Rio was the turning point.
2) Who supplied him? While it's easy to mindlessly point the finger at the Rosa's, the crucial missing piece of information with the big athletes, like Kisorio, Jeptoo, Sumgong, and now Kiprop, is who supplied the doping program? This is one of Seppelt's big investigative failures, after he interviewed Kisorio. The athletes themselves tend to clear their coaches and managers of any blame, as did the Kenyan courts, due to the lack of any evidence.
Banana Bread wrote:
Doped to the Max wrote:
The Geomathematician wrote:
Where is Renato? Renato? You there?
Paging Coach Canova?
...and where is rekrunner? rekrunner? You there?
Paging rekrunner?
Crickets chirping. Does anyone here crickets chirping? -
DHT123 wrote:
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
DHT123 wrote:
3) We have to look backwards before we go forwards. Without a Truth & Reconciliation council in athletics, the sport will not progress. Look at the list of Rosa athletes. Look at the old world records still standing. It's quite obvious that there has been massive amounts of doping and cheating in the past but without an incentive (or lack of punishment) to come clean, we will never clear anything up. We need to actively interrogate the champions and the times of the past. Anyone who has seen my posts know that my bugbear on this issue is Paula Radcliffe and the holes in her story surrounding the three dodgy test results in her career. To [i]take one example, we're supposed to believe that after setting a world best time in the Great North Run, she is then so ill with 'food poisoning' she is given a course of antibiotics (ask your doctor how likely this is...) and is then so 'weak' due to this that she has a Hgb score of only 12.0.....but then manages to destroy the world class opposition in the world half marathon championships (13 days after the Great North Run and presumably still taking the antibiotics[/u]. Come ON! Are you serious? If this was a runner of another nationality we'd be laughing at this ridiculous story. Again, we need some journalists to do some good work and dig into these stories from the past and stop believing what they are told.
Interesting, I never heard that one (mind you I haven't read her biography).
The contradictions between her autobiography and what has subsequently come up around the flagged test results are the most interesting and most damning things around her story. She will never be done for the tests themselves, but the holes in her stories could still be her downfall if people actively pursued them.
The rise of British Cycling dominance and Radcliff's outstanding marathon performances is interesting. -
Kiprop is very tall like Bolt, so I'm sure the b sample will clear him.
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Don't start again with your nonsense! You can't whine this time that none of the very at the top runners in the history of the sport hasn't benefited from rocket fuel. ☝️ 5th fastest ever (3:26.69/2015) and only one of three runners to ever go sub-3:27! Just a coincidence that he happens to be associated with rocket fuel?
rekrunner wrote:
Crickets chirp at night -- and since it was night, I was sleeping.
If you really ever understood some of what I was saying, I don't find "proof by example" very strong evidence of anything except for that individual example. It's not because we can add one more high profile example to a handful of other examples, that logical fallacies suddenly become valid arguments. Someone astutely said that the plural of anecdote is not proof.
I never denied that the faith in EPO is very strong, and can even reach the top. We can see by the number of athletes who point up to the sky, and make the cross sign, and other symbolic gestures, that even elite athletes make faith an important part of their lives.
It's unfortunate that a new high profile name is added to the list of doping positives. Either Kiprop, or someone around him, had faith in EPO (assuming Kiprop intentionally took EPO for performance), and it's also looking bad for the Rosa's, who, as the brojos put it, are either incompetent (for not managing their athletes with enough oversight), or complicit.
It's a real shame that they obviously did not read my "Closer look at performances in the EPO era" thread, as the 1500m is the one "distance" event which showed comparatively small progress in the EPO era, measured by both quantity and quality. Only 13 athletes ran faster than my pre-EPO threshold in the two decades of 1990-2009. Since the passing of the ABP, when you would expect EPO performances to decline, in only 9 years, the rate more than doubled, as 13 more have run faster, interestingly only at Monaco.
Two important questions for me:
1) When did he start? His last "fast" performance was three years ago in 2015. If we assume he doped in 2015 and before, and continued doping, then we are left with an awkward explanation for why his performances were so bad since, including Rio. If he only doped after, it would fit a pattern of an athlete having a couple years of disappointing performances, tempted to take something to help restore his previous capability. Maybe Rio was the turning point.
2) Who supplied him? While it's easy to mindlessly point the finger at the Rosa's, the crucial missing piece of information with the big athletes, like Kisorio, Jeptoo, Sumgong, and now Kiprop, is who supplied the doping program? This is one of Seppelt's big investigative failures, after he interviewed Kisorio. The athletes themselves tend to clear their coaches and managers of any blame, as did the Kenyan courts, due to the lack of any evidence.
Kiprop = high responder to EPO. -
TLW wrote:
You can't win Gold in the Olympics without doping.
You probably can't but other people can. -
Coevett wrote:
Yet she destroyed the East Africans (at her best) and they still can't get near her times
All of Paula's times have been beaten by East African women except for her 2:15:25, which was run with male pacers and had a tailwind much of the way. -
Sprintgeezer wrote:
These are dark days for the sport.
The 80s were dark days. Sprint Capitol was dark days.
Shining a light on cheats makes for bright days. -
Reality Stone wrote:
I'm sorry to say that everyone at the top pushes the acceptable and unacceptable legal limits. Micro dosing, flat out doping, etc. the world stage is a shame similar to pro cycling. Open your eyes. Athletes who will do anything to run better do. Is not just altitude tents, training at altitude, only some supplemts, unseated treadmills, etc. whatever they gets their hands on. Americans too
Could you tell us some of the things you did to run better?
