Down goes Semenya!!!

wtfbbq wrote:

Ovaries yes, testicles no wrote:

However if her testosterone (or most of it) is produced by testicles and her levels are in the male range and not the female range then that's not fair. From what I've read this is the case with Semenya.

From what I've read, her range is somewhere in between. She doesn't have the same testicles as a man does; hers would be internal (abnormally located in the pelvis or abdomen) and they would be far more underdeveloped than a man's.

Basically she's far lower than a man's testosterone production but a lot higher than a full woman's, somewhere in the grey zone.

I know her testicles are internal and perhaps not fully formed but they still produce plenty of testosterone. The IAAF report says the normal male range is 7.7 – 29.4 nmol/L and previously when Semanya took drugs to lower her testosterone level the limit was 10 nmol/L so I'm assuming her T level was higher than 10 which is in the male range.

This post seems to make good sense, until you consider that the entire premise upon which the post rests is that Semenya should compete against women.

That is a premise born of advocacy.

I advocate for a different premise, in the name of economy. Semenya’s individual choice of what gender he considers himself should have no bearing on the competition classes.

It seems to me that much of the difficulty revealed by the above post disappears when the initial premise is removed. 2 broad groups of T have already been identified scientifically, AFAIK, and they are generally labeled male and female. Measure him according to the protocol, and assign him to 1 of the 2 groups. If he doesn’t like it, he doesn’t have to compete. That would not be a prohibition on participation, it would be the regulation of participation for good and valid reasons.

Too much time and resources are being inefficiently allocated to this issue that affects so few, and that is easily remedied without all the hand-wringing. The tail is wagging the dog. Semenya can consider himself a women all he wants, but he shouldn’t be allowed to compete against them.

Same issue here in the YMCA, where guys who consider themselves women are allowed to use the women’s change room. A whole bunch of actual women, my wife included, said screw that and have all left the YMCA.

The Y is an extreme example, as it is in the forefront of so-called “social justice and equality”. It is primarily an organ of the so-called “social progressive” policy agenda. The IAAF and IOC should not follow suit. Why not? Because the original mandate of the Y has been greatly eroded as a result of the new imperatives, and that original mandate was laudable in its own right. Now what you have is a Y that is full of fat F’s sitting around building more plaque than muscle, and feeling great about themselves. Nice.

The most important vote you can cast is with your wallet. A Y board member is my neighbor, I know they feel these effects.

I don’t watch the women’s 800 anymore, it’s a joke. I felt so bad for Bishop who got burned in Rio when she got beaten by 3 men (Semenya, Niyonsaba, and Wambui), I haven’t been able to watch it since. I advocate against men’s participation in women’s competitions at every opportunity.

Everyone who keeps referring to Semenya as "a dude" or "he" or "that guy" -- you're doing your argument a disservice. We get your point, and it's a valid one, but when you're inflammatory and provocative for the purpose of being inflammatory and provocative, people are going to ignore you.

bkrunner wrote:

Everyone who keeps referring to Semenya as "a dude" or "he" or "that guy" -- you're doing your argument a disservice. We get your point, and it's a valid one, but when you're inflammatory and provocative for the purpose of being inflammatory and provocative, people are going to ignore you.

Since when is stating facts provocative. I can't really force myself to see "her" as a "her". I agree "ze" "that person" may be more appropriate though.

dwightarm wrote:

Test for Test wrote:

Though desperate as you are, I bet you'd never ever consider hitting on "her".

That's your basis on what makes a woman? If we want to hit on her?

Semenya has a vagina. She is an intersex woman and identifies as such.

She is not a man.

There's nothing else to it.

Thats great, then create a third category for intersex to compete in. Pretty easy problem to solve.

Guess why they won’t do that? Yes, not enough numbers and nobody would watch and there would be no money in it.

Or, why not just make intersex compete with men. What’s wrong with that? It’s a bigger challenge, isn’t that what an athete wants? My daughter plays on the boys soccer team because she wants the higher level of play.

Caster has proven that intersex are superior to women. We got it. Why not now see how she does against men? Oh right - because the truth is about money, not rights. We are forced into this place over greed, that’s it. If there was no money involved this would have been resolved a long time ago.

George213 wrote:

Since when is stating facts provocative. I can't really force myself to see "her" as a "her". I agree "ze" "that person" may be more appropriate though.

Because you are NOT stating a fact.

She is a woman. She identifies as a woman. She has a vagina. She may be intersex but she is far more female, anatomically speaking, than she is male.

Neither you nor anyone else gets to make that call.

Calling her male or he isn't solely disrespectful, it's also incorrect.

But why should they do this? They are using todays' standards of time to state that she has an unfair advantage. Right? Then, why has she not ever legitimately beaten the time of Jarmila Kratochvilova? They can say she is holding back, but there is no evidence to support the claim. If they could have proven PEDs with Kratochvilova, then it would not stand as the women's 800m record. Until she beats Kratochvilova or even comes close, this should not be an issue, really.

wtfbbq wrote:

George213 wrote:

Since when is stating facts provocative. I can't really force myself to see "her" as a "her". I agree "ze" "that person" may be more appropriate though.

Because you are NOT stating a fact.

She is a woman. She identifies as a woman. She has a vagina. She may be intersex but she is far more female, anatomically speaking, than she is male.

Neither you nor anyone else gets to make that call.

Calling her male or he isn't solely disrespectful, it's also incorrect.

A woman with a Y-chromosome and internal testes...you got me.

I ain't calling zir " male", ze is not a female either, sexually speaking.

It's just like you can't call broccoli a mammal (it's a plant, newsflash!)

Gender and sex aren't the same thing.

“Because you are NOT stating a fact.”

Neither is he when he identifies as a woman. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

“She identifies [herself] as a woman.”

Fine. I identify him as a man, for the relevant purpose of this discussion: competition in organized track.

“Neither you nor anyone else gets to make that call.”

Wrong. Anyone can make whatever call they want, it is every individual’s right to think and express freely. That applies to both Semenya and to myself equally. FOR THE PURPOSES OF COMPETITION IN ORGANIZED TRACK, the governing bodies get to make that call, because they are serving the broader public interest, and any issue Semenya may have is but one issue in a large sea of issues, all of which bear on each other. Try to grow beyond your conditioning and see the situation from a broader perspective.

“Calling her male or he isn't solely disrespectful, it’s also incorrect.”

No it’s not, especially for the relevant purpose of this thread. I use masculine identifiers as a matter of accuracy and precision in the conversation, and it has nothing to do with respect.

Beyond that, however, I neither respect nor disrespect Semenya. I understand that he has big-time issues that he has to deal with.

Not understanding all the facts of his life makes it difficult to reasonably comment on how he chooses to deal with them, but I can comment on his actions, from my own perspective. I do not respect his choice to identify as female for the purposes of athletic competition, not at all—nor do I know all the reasons that went into making that choice. Some here have raised greed as a motivation, and that is certainly a possibility.

I don’t know what is going on in his mind, and I don’t particularly care. It’s not Semenya that I care about, it is the broader set of principles that underpin athletic competition. IF the world was a more efficient place and the resources to establish a third intersex category existed, I would be fine with that—but in the current “real world” there are economies that need to be considered.

At this time, while development of a third category is being discussed, he should be permitted to compete against only men. Consider the asymmetry: while he would be a mediocre local meet competitor at men’s 800 and 1500m, he is the absolute best in the world, essentially unchallenged, in the women’s category. That glaring asymmetry of outcome alone suggests that the more reasonable and equitable assignment is to the male category.

This whole gender pronoun thing is very telling. It amounts to no less than someone else limiting your freedom of expression, with the ultimate aim of limiting your freedom of thought. I know a great many gay men, and they often refer to each other as “she”, or “girl”, something that I have steadfastly refused to countenance in the 30 years that I have had close involvement with the gay community.

They are fine with it, and always have been—and yes, I know that for a fact. Even those who feel that nature dealt them the wrong gender.

I will refer to Semenya however I want in whatever situation, because it is my right to choose to do so, and it is my further right to express those thoughts that are not the product of either hatred or an attempt to vilify or undermine a protected class.

George213 wrote:

Rono. wrote:

Agree completely, we don't understand enough about these complex biological pathways and their knock on effects.

Difficult situation but this poor women just wants to race. She should just step away from this madness.

In addition the hypocrisy is huge, this coming from a governing body who clearly has no desire to catch PED cheats.

If he wants to race, why doesn't he just race in the open category.

re: "He"

Semenya is a female, that's a fact; there is a lot of thoughtful discussion going on, don't distract from it.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

I will refer to Semenya however I want in whatever situation, because it is my right to choose to do so, and it is my further right to express those thoughts that are not the product of either hatred or an attempt to vilify or undermine a protected class.

You're someone whom I usually love reading and respect on this forum so it is very strange for me to read your attempts to justify your speech.

Refer to her however you want, fine.

She is not a he.

She is a she.

She is not transgender.

She is not a man.

She is a woman.

She may have internal testes but that does not a male make, especially when the rest of your body is female.

Psychologically, physiologically, she is a woman, medically, a doctor would tell you that she is, in fact, a woman.

At the end of the day, regardless if you do not see it as malice when you refer to her as a man, it is.

Hate speech is not a right of expression.

"..She unfairly beat people because she's physiologically a man competing in women's events..."

Prove it. You only know this as others say the same thing, based on no evidence that has been shared with the public.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

But why should they do this?

They are using todays' standards of time to state that she has an unfair advantage. Right?

Then, why has she not ever legitimately beaten the time of Jarmila Kratochvilova?

They can say she is holding back, but there is no evidence to support the claim.

If they could have proven PEDs with Kratochvilova, then it would not stand as the women's 800m record.

Until she beats Kratochvilova or even comes close, this should not be an issue, really.

I'm not sure what your point is here unless it was to illustrate that we need to stop having to bend over backwards when dealing with obvious situations. Yes, there is no doubt JK's record should be expunged and I don't think it requires an explanation. We all know why. Likewise, Semenya shouldn't be allowed to race women and we all know why and it shouldn't be a debate. It should just be a bunch of reasonable people nodding their heads going "yeah, I get it, she shouldn't be allowed to race as a woman". How we have got to the point where we create this circus when dealing with a glaringly obvious situation is ridiculous.

In this world not everyone gets their way, that's not how it works. Apparently 1.7% of people are born intersex. Why we would let the 1.7% dictate policy is ridiculous. Any rule created could only potentially adversely affect 1.7% of the population, which means that 98.3% of the population could not possibly be adversely affected. That is a fantastic success rate for any rule.

Sledge_hammer wrote:

Hate speech is not a right of expression.

All right, specifically what "hate speech" are you referring to? Generally, how do you define hate speech?

asdghj wrote:

Sledge_hammer wrote:

Hate speech is not a right of expression.

All right, specifically what "hate speech" are you referring to? Generally, how do you define hate speech?

If calling a woman a "man" does not sound hateful to you, I don't know what does.

So the 1.7% don't deserve any rights, because they are the minority. Gotcha.

Sledge_hammer wrote:

asdghj wrote:

All right, specifically what "hate speech" are you referring to? Generally, how do you define hate speech?

If calling a woman a "man" does not sound hateful to you, I don't know what does.

I don't agree with calling Semenya a man, she's intersex. But to say's it beyond the right of expression seems over the top to me.

bkrunner wrote:

Everyone who keeps referring to Semenya as "a dude" or "he" or "that guy" -- you're doing your argument a disservice. We get your point, and it's a valid one, but when you're inflammatory and provocative for the purpose of being inflammatory and provocative, people are going to ignore you.

I agree with you.

Semenya is chromosomally a female, period. If someone actually thought she was a male, no discussion would be necessary. Folks need to keep two things in mind, one Semenya didn't ask to be intersex and has never purposely cheated. Semenya is more victim than villain! Two, there are lots of females whose T-level are higher than the normal, this is probably the case with most world-class female athletes. In Semenya case, the T-level is closer to that of a male. The issue is not sex, it is t-level. The IAAF is taking the appropriate action, perhaps not completely fair to all, but best for the greater good.