Mayor of London wants to ban knives

DiscoGary wrote:

London does not have a knife problem.

London does not have an acid problem.

London would not have a gun problem if they allowed general ownership of guns.

London has a cultural problem in that there are a lot of people in their society who are uncivilized and willing to resort to violence. Until they fix their cultural problem, no amount of banning common household items will make things better. This is true in the US, the UK, or wherever there's a lot of violence among people.

Ok, so why has the crime rate risen in every major city in London since 2013 which is when the government cut policing and youth clubs?

advice from paris wrote:

The Government makes these decisions. The current, Conservative Government.

Other than the delusion that there's been a meaningful "conservative" government in UK at least since Thatcher and likely since the second War, ok mate.

Don't see why the mayor of London should get to ban knives then, if he doesn't even control his own police force.

I'm not sure what you want/think the Tory's should be doing and promoting in their manifesto and party policies, but if they aren't right wing enough for you then you are welcome to vote for more extreme parties. It's a democracy.

They are called the Conservative party so that's what I've referred to them as in my post.

He doesn't get to ban knives. He will just ask the government or perhaps the labour party to consider looking at the possibility of raising the issue in parliament. Last time I checked the mayors of cities in the UK can't just make up laws.

The only thing he can and likely has done, is ask the Met nicely if they wouldn't mind just being extra vigilant in trying to get knives off the street and encouraging judges in the city to hand out harsh sentences for repeat offenders, within the laws already written.

I don't know if you are American, but the US posters on this site really don't have a clue about the UK so there is no point in threads like this. In fact, on googling 'Sadiq Khan bans knives', the first page of results are dominated by American news outlets, foxnews, Washington Times, USA Today, all stating the same nonsense as is in this thread. Some of them have claimed that Sadiq HAS banned knives already! Shock to me sitting here in London because Tesco hasn't started pulling them from their shelves, interestingly.

ex-runner wrote:

He doesn't get to ban knives..

In his own words...

“[T]here is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”

So he's catching these culprits for a non-existent ban, in your mind? Of course, Tesco can still SELL them, but he said carrying them is against his law. That whole "reading comprehension" thing again....

I guess you haven't been stopped and searched for looking like you are carrying a knife yet. The ban is already in effect, if you didn't know?

Anyway, it's totally false that the Met Police aren't funded by City of London. Here's there own release.

I'm sure you know how council tax works, it's direct, not through Westminster and May.....

Twitter disagrees wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

He doesn't get to ban knives..

In his own words...

“[T]here is never a reason to carry a knife. Anyone who does will be caught, and they will feel the full force of the law.”

So he's catching these culprits for a non-existent ban, in your mind? Of course, Tesco can still SELL them, but he said carrying them is against his law. That whole "reading comprehension" thing again....

https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/982906526334668800

My God.

It's already illegal to carry a knife in the UK you tool. That little Twitter speech is political babbling. He's appearing tough on the issue but in reality there is no change to legislation.

Saying 'you will be caught and face the full force of the law' is exactly what I said before. He will ask the Met to up stop and searches which they will begrudgingly agree but in practice don't have to do anything, and it sets the 'tone' for sentencing in London but again he has absolutely no legal power to tell judges what to do in the slightest. They can already hand down maximum sentences for knife crimes, or course.

Well the City of London isn't policed by the Met Police for a start.

The government decides the Police budget, they also decide how much local authorities can raise council tax each year. And it even says in your post this little bit of extra cash the Met is getting is to try and reduce the negative effects of the HUGE cuts on policing by the government. As my earlier post about budgets stated, the budget for policing has fallen about 18% which is about £1.6 billion. The Met was told last year it needs to reduce spending by about £400 mil on top of the cuts already made. This £49mil is a redistribution of council tax money, i.e. taking away from other local services to try and patch up the damage done by the government cuts.

And as I said the ban on carrying a knife in public came into effect in about 1979.

From the land where self-defence is effectively illegal

Sometimes it’s good to just take a look around and realize how good you’ve got it. A quick look at U.K. knife laws illustrates this point, because most of us barbarian Yanks simply won’t believe the emasculated nanny-state restrictions that our British brethren have to live with. ...

... I am particularly chilled by Big Brother’s helpful comment “A court will decide if you’ve got a good reason to carry a knife if you’re charged with carrying it illegally.” That surely provides a lot of guidance.

Anyway, that's the (correct) context of the Mayor of London's bully pulpit, namely that he's trying to redefine the law, and get Courts to agree with him that there's "never a reason" therein. One can guess that there's a lot of class-privilege asserted in these "good reason" defences, and as always it's "who you know" in UK to get you off.

Anyway, it shows that OP was right, in the sense that this would "ban knives", as opposed to the current lawfulness for good reasons.

No the courts can't agree there's never a good reason.

Read the law yourself. The 'good reason' is very limited and a few explicit examples/exemptions are stated in the legislation. It's not arbitrary. Combined with case law the definition of when it is legal to carry a knife in the UK and what knives are legal to carry is very well outlined.

For example you cannot have a kitchen knife under your hoody in the park but if you are a chef and traveling directly to work with your kit then it is defined in law as acceptable and unless Khan becomes Supreme Leader he cannot change that fact.

The OP is not correct in the slightest. The law remains the same and it's interpretation remains the same.

All that has 'happened' is Sadiq expressed desire to have the laws changed and has asked to police to increase their stop and search numbers, which they might, but probably won't.

Thousands of foreign gangsters being monitored as organised crime syndicate members have been awarded British citizenship, figures suggest. Data obtained by The Times shows the National Crime Agency are monitoring 2,083 gangsters, human traffickers, and drug dealers linked to organised crime syndicates who have British citizenship but were born abroad.

Thank you for the lack of link. Your argument from arrogance is also incorrect to boot. Notably, your claim that 'good reason' is "very limited" is nowhere stated in the actual text, which in fact specifically rebuts the notion, stating verbatim that there is "generality" therein involved.

The arbitrariness of the legislation is essentially what the previous post said (quoting UKgov info, no less). The judge gets to rule however he/she feels, likely based upon what class the culprit is.

UK Criminal Justice Act 1988, Section 139

Despite your insinuation the contrary regarding the law, (5) quite specifically says that it is only exemplary, not consistory ("without prejudice to the generality"). It does indeed seem quite arbitrary how a judge will interpret, as (5) only commands that these 3 specifically be excepted with no guidance on others, and if case law (again unlinked) does indeed exist, it has no real capacity to inform anyway.

Past cases have shown that the 'good reasons' must pretty much fall directly under the (a) (b) and (c) suggestions given. There was even a case of a pensioner using a knife to cut fruit in public for his wife whom apparently needed fruit in small cubes and was arrested and lost in court.

Regardless, again Sadiq has absolutely no power to change the law as it is written; providing at least three direct situation where carrying a knife would be a legal action. Again, outside of becoming the Fuhrer Sadiq CANNOT remove that part of the law which allows knives to be carried for a listed 'good reason'. He cannot enact a 'knife ban'. It's simply not legally possible.

I'm not even sure what we are arguing here any more. You pulled up the law I have been talking about, it clearly writes:

So get back to me when you find some legislation that allows Mayor's the power to ignore sections of the Criminal Justice Act.

For example you cannot have a kitchen knife under your hoody in the park ...

The law (which I think is England and Wales, not UK) does not specifically say that. For all we know, there might be good reason (or lawful authority) for such, in any given individual case. It's up to a judge to interpret subsection #4, not us plebeians. If you read the law too strictly, you can't even buy a paring knife utensil and transport it home. Of course, I doubt those who so fervently promote this law have turned theirs in.

The notion of a "public place" is also not settled (even under 'case law'), though clearly Mayor of London will expand its authority anywhere he deems able. (It's a bit funny that the unenlightened turn in their knives in "amnesties", as personal possession is itself not illegal like with other weapons, but then, it's always good to run up credit

Does anyone remotely think someone with gravitas would have been persecuted by authorities as this unlucky bloke was (link below)? No, of course not, they only go after the weak. That's what Mayor of London is doing.

Of course "good reason" is 100% a class/status construct.

Do you think that Sadiq Khan himself, when having bodyguards carry offensive weapons that would be illegal for normal people, wouldn't plead exactly that if challenged on the issue?

If you are important enough in England, there are no laws in effect.

Think this shows that the problem is criminals, not the lack of policing.London’s armed gangs are branching out of the capital and police are warning of the possibility of a ‘massacre of the middle classes’. Stern warnings from Children’s Commissioner Anne Longfield that young people from every midsize town could get sucked into drug dealing, including middle-class havens like Cambridge, by ‘county-lines’ where gangs deal drugs away from their own areas. ‘Yardie-style’ gangsters with guns and acid attacks threatening to seize control of trade.

“It is now something of a problem throughout the country and for most towns of substantial sizes. If they have not been targeted already they will be targeted. There are increased instances of middle class children being involved.” explained Mrs Longfield.

Detective Inspector Billy Bremner of Cambridgeshire Police, said: “County lines is a massive scourge on society. It involves human trafficking, child exploitation and grooming.”

Police forces and the justice system are strongly responding to the threat with raids, arrests and convictions.

Surges in crack cocaine use across southern England have brought county lines from London and other cities to move in to meet demand, the Sunday Express shared last Sunday.

According to Detective Inspector Bremner, about 40 per cent of county line dealers travel into his area by train and said: “They are predominantly black males of Somali or Afro-Caribbean origin aged 14 upwards.”

Detective Chief Inspector David Coleman, of Kent and Essex Serious Crime Directorate, said: “Criminals involved in the sale of class A drugs are ruthless and often commit other serious offences against drug-users, rival dealers or innocent members of the public with knives and other weapons.”

A new report has revealed the seriousness of gang violence in the United Kingdom. According to the National Crime Agency, rising gang activity “affects more UK citizens, more often, than any other national security threat.”

The annual report shines a light on the UK’s underbelly – the NCA estimates 4,629 gangs are active in the UK, and the use of illegal firearms is on the rise as more and more weapons are smuggled across borders from Europe.

“Criminals are continuing to develop international connections to increase the reach of their activity, and to maximise profits,” Owens said. “We are also seeing ever-increasing crossover between crime threats, with finance at the heart of this. Organised criminals involved in smuggling of people or firearms also supply drugs, and the relationship between organised immigration crime and modern slavery is becoming more apparent.

Listen I already said this. Most judges in the UK already take the law in its stricted form and do not allow generic defences under the 'good reason' clause except for the explicitly mentioned work, religious or national costume reasons mentioned in the law.

The article you linked proves this fact and I referred to a similar case earlier in this thread.

Therefore, the mayor has not achieved anything with his words about wanting a ban put in place. The law hasn't been changed, he has no power to change it, he can't up police numbers, police are and have been cut, no police are taking on extra stop and search measures, so this entire discussion and the relating articles are an entire waste of time.

It's typical letsrun fake news. All this fanfare about a 'ban on knives' from Gary who is American and has no idea how things work here, and the truth is knives have been banned since 1988 and the law is fully enforced all the time.

The offensive weapons act is one of the police's favourite ones to pull out on people with all kinds of unassuming articles in their cars or bags. It's old news.

ex-runner wrote: Most judges in the UK already take the law in its stricted form and do not allow generic defences under the 'good reason' clause except for the explicitly mentioned work, religious or national costume reasons mentioned in the law.

Again, under this absurdly strict reading, how do you get a paring knife from Tesco's (where you say they can be bought) to home (which is no longer a public place)? Some sort of teleportation? Get Tesco to deliver, so that it will fall under the explicitly-enumerated "work" exemption?

According to UK judges, it must be thatTesco ensures that paring-knife buyers are indeed chefs, and then only ships to the underlying business address.

Also, knives used as props in theatre have gotten judges to say it's "good reasons", but then when the West End is at stake, you can bet the Law will bend to approve it.

Therefore, the mayor has not achieved anything with his words about wanting a ban put in place. The law hasn't been changed, he has no power to change it, he can't up police numbers, police are and have been cut, no police are taking on extra stop and search measures, so this entire discussion and the relating articles are an entire waste of time.

Sheesh, how many times are you not going to read his very words?

Here’s what the Mayor is doing:

Boosting police power

The Met Police has introduced targeted patrols with extra stop and search powers for areas worst-affected by knife crime. (bold in original

“Now London crime itself, what we’ve seen is a 44 percent increase, year on year, in the murder rate going on in this capital,” Farage said. “It’s mostly knife crime. It’s mostly associated with gangs. It is mostly black on black crime, although nobody has got the courage to stand up and say that for fear of being thought to be racist.”

Farage also stated that the police have stopped doing search and frisk procedures that would “stop people, frisk them down, see whether they had knives on them,” and that the reason for the rollback of such procedures is that the police have a “fear of being criticized as being racist.”

Farage then went after current London mayor Sadiq Khan, saying, “Over 60 people killed in this capital already this year, and the mayor of London has not visited a single one of the crime scenes and has not spoken to any of the families.”