Why do people on here hate ultra runners?

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cardiobroski wrote:

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Winning wrote:

Because people think it is impressive to jog/hike for 12+ hours when it is not.

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to each their own, im impressed by anyone that can jog for over 12 hours at any pace faster than speed walking.

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Racewalking >> Ultras wrote:

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cardiobroski wrote:

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Winning wrote:

Because people think it is impressive to jog/hike for 12+ hours when it is not.

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to each their own, im impressed by anyone that can jog for over 12 hours at any pace faster than speed walking.

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As cardio-bro was no doubt hoping someone would point out, the 20km-walk world record is 6:10/mile pace and the 12 hour run world record is 7:05 pace.

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Cb wrote:

Using this logic...10k runners suck because they couldn't make it as sprinters.

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mrjoe1008 wrote:

This sums it up. End of thread.

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Why Not wrote:

I think somebody else said it, intensity. A lot of people on here train hard, which means suffering. And running is all about suffering and pain tolerance. No timeouts in racing right? I think a lot of people object to ultra running because there is so little intense training involved. And so it's seen more like professional hiking, jogging. Just speaking personally, the dozens of ultra runners I know do not do repeats of any kind. Now they'll go hike/jog/walk/run for 8 hours on a Saturday or Sunday, but if I ask them if they want to do mile repeats they cringe.

I think some people get jealous of all the time ultra runners seem to have. I'd like to be able to spend a lot more time in nature than I do, but I can't, so I run in the concrete jungle and around in circles on a track. To add another generalization to the mix, ultra running is a sport inhabited by more single/divorced/people with grown up kids who don't have as many restrictions in their life.

Finally, I think some of its confidence. Most ultra runners I know just don't give a crap about times or what people think about them. Whereas some people on here, wink wink, care quite a bit about every second of that 5K pr. People who are OCD about running perhaps subconsciously wish they could let go, and just enjoy a run through the woods, or running through the woods.

So I think you could sum up a lot of the hate as disguised jealousy. Ultra running is running without the intense training, done by confident people who have more time on their hands than the average person. And that pisses off a lot of people who train really hard, run painful repeats, care intensely about their 5k time and wonder if it's all worth it.

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Exaggerations wrote:

Over the top statement, "An up hill 8:30 mile is equal to a 5 minute mile on a flat road." y.

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duhh wrote:

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Racewalking >> Ultras wrote:

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cardiobroski wrote:

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Winning wrote:

Because people think it is impressive to jog/hike for 12+ hours when it is not.

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to each their own, im impressed by anyone that can jog for over 12 hours at any pace faster than speed walking.

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As cardio-bro was no doubt hoping someone would point out, the 20km-walk world record is 6:10/mile pace and the 12 hour run world record is 7:05 pace.

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Well, 20 km is no 12 hours. 7:05 min/mi is much faster than anyone could speed walk 12 hours.

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Ignorance is no excuse for being stupid wrote:

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Exaggerations wrote:

Over the top statement, "An up hill 8:30 mile is equal to a 5 minute mile on a flat road." y.

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Your ignorance is astounding. Bob Hodge averaged 5 minute pace for a marathon and his fastest winning time running 7.6 mile Mt Washington road race was just over 8 minute pace. There are countless hills much steeper and difficult than running on a road up mt washington.

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Sage and Jim W. are the exception to ultrarunning. They decided for whatever reason to run longer on trails. Now, if ultrarunning/trail running had more Sages, Jims and Maxs then it would be even more serious. Anton K. beat Max King at some Utah 50k. What is Anton's marathon time? What is Max's marathon time? Let that sink in for a bit.

butthole

butthole_test

Not to get too far off topic here, but: I've actually faltered pretty bad at 100-milers and even in shorter mountain races.

As far as Max getting beat by Anton at Speedgoat 50km...yeah it did happen in 2013. The course that year was shorter and easier actually (and the weather was cooler)...so hard to compared times, but Anton was even closing on me a bit at the end. However Anton doesn't run anymore. Max is still rocking it at age 38 and getting better and better at mountain-ultras!

Max has actually gotten more consistent in the past 2 years at Mountain Races (look at his improvement at Sierre-Zinal, Comrades, and his 3rd place at Mont Blanc marathon). Not to mention top 20 at the US Olympic Trials. However, I still don't think he has a sub 60-min in him at Mt. WA! (note: I greatly respect Max as an #AnySurfaceAnyDistance guy though).

Like I mentioned earlier the "runnable" 50km and 50-milers (esp) with less climbing correlate very well to marathon times/fitness. In mountain races and the longer ultras I've gotten beat by 2:30+ marathoners.

Finally for the "8:30-min mile uphill" to "5-min mile on the flats." That is certainly true. Go out and set a treadmill to 15% grade and see how an "8-min mile" feels. At a race Mt. WA on some miles you are climbing up a road and doing 300-400+' of vertical gain a mile. A 7:30 certainly is equivalent to a 5:00 flat on the roads for a half marathon (and I have done both). In Euro mountain racing you can easily hit 800-1000' of vertical gain in a mile (sometimes on technical trail too)...good luck trying to run sub 10-min or even 12-min split on that!

Regardless, Anton did beat Max King. Short or long course is not relevant. I'm not an Anton fan but facts are facts.

Maybe Sage is still sore because Anton once said all these fast road types wouldn't necessarily cut it in mountain 100s?

Hey man it is hard to cut it in 100 mile mountain runs! Last I checked no American male has ever won UTMB. I think Max is much improved with experience over 10 years of mountain running now (despite being in his late 30s). It is very impressive and an inspiration to me.

I think being a "fast" road marathoner (and road marathon training in general) certainly gives one huge advantage in most ultra running though....and there will just be more and more guys "moving up" from road marathons and college track running backgrounds who will smash ultra-trail records at #AnySurfaceAnyDistance. 100-miles in the mountains correlates a lot less with road marathon times, but the guys winning UTMB can still run a sub 2:30 marathon.

The climbing and mountains bring other factors into play. (i.e. a 31-min 10km runner like Zach Miller can still beat sub 30-min 10km runners like myself and sub 29-min 10km runners like Hayden Hawks...even at runnable 50-milers like TNF). Then you have 29-low 10km college runners like Tim Freriks winning Transvulcania and TNF. The competition is just getting deeper. No doubt some of these types of guys are going to crush a 100-miler soon. Right now the "sample size" is still pretty small though.

I'd certainly say a 2:18 marathoner guy like Tim Tollefson (who has gotten 3rd at UTMB twice now) is in a great position to win a mountain 100miler in the future too. The more numbers we have like that, the more competitive it will be heading into the future. There is a learning curve, there is a training specificity (which I have personally screwed up on in the past...as well as racing too frequently) and their are genetics involved as well.

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Exaggerations wrote:

s? A very small number of you ultra-types ever ran two five minute miles back to back. Tell us about the time you [i]almost[/u] ran a five minute mile in a road race.

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The funny thing is that the 5k time matters in any race longer than 800m.

It maybe had something to do with the bunch of you guys debuting at the 100 mile distance against the deepest fields or going straight away after the course record? A lot of people felt that the latest wave of speedsters came into the scene with little respect for the established 100-mile runners or the distance itself.

I have little doubt you could have crushed your first 100 miler if you had chosen a more modest venue to debut without all the pressure. And with that experience in your pocket, you'd be better prepared to take on the big races.

Zach Miller, Jim Walmsley, yourself, have been victims of your own hubris. Meanwhile runners who aren't more talented than either of you, like Laney or Tollefson, went into UTMB with a calm head and a realistic strategy and podiumed there three years in a row.

I believe, Sage, you got what it takes to beat Killian at UTMB or Walmsley at Western States. But you don't see those guys chasing marathon PRs or Olympic Trials at the expense of their ultramarathon performance. #AnySurfaceAnyDistance sounds cool, but in the end it's just a lack of focus.

I say this as a fan of ultras and as a fan of you as a runner: you should hire an experienced 100 mile runner to coach you. You'll just waste time and talent going by trial and error. I don't doubt you and Sandi can provide good advice to your coaching clients, but neither of you has the experience to coach an elite 100 ultrarunner.

Sage, man, you're the real deal. You should be dominating the American ultra scene an rewriting course records. Stop sabbotaging yourself.

Hey thanks for your support.
I don't know if I'm cut out for the 100-mile distance...but I'll keep trying!

In the future for sure it would be nice to focus 100% on a mountain 100 miler event and respect the distance more fully. I figure I can do that in my mid to late 30s still - while running sub 2:19:00 will get a lot harder with older age (its already hard enough for me). As soon as I hit a 2020 OTQ I wouldn't run another marathon until the trials and I will try to go back to the big 100s like Western States/UTMB. I could have done UTMB again this year but I chose not to and instead focus on Mountain 42km-50km racing for the summer season.

You're right with the specific training though. Hilly/mountain 100-milers are a different beast. If you look at my Strava you will see the irony of my past training mistakes: I've done a lot more consistent high mileage and high volume training for road marathons in the past 6 months than I ever did before 100-milers. Actually my build-up to UTMB last summer was pathetic when I look back on it.

[Back on topic for this thread: "All men should strive to learn before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why." - James Thurber.]
I think another issue that can cause friction between track/road runners and ultra/trail runners on here is an age difference. Generally ultra-trail runners are older (i.e. 30-60 on average maybe?) and a lot of track runners are still in school (college or hs) - or road runners in their 20s. Based on those averages, we could speculate that there is friction between the generations (or half generations). Gen Xers think Millennials are "soft" for only doing marathons while they do ultramarathons etc.

Are you interested in running Leadville? It seems to be falling out of favour with American elites, but Carpenter's CR there may be harder than winning UTMB. The irony is that a podium at UTMB may be more profitable for a sponsored ultrarunner than a victory and CR at Leadville .

About the animosity here towards ultrarunners, it's based on a lack of knowledge of the sport and taking stereotypes and cliches for facts. That and the general trolling attitude.