Should you always “fast finish” tempo runs?

If you think it helps you race better then by all means keep doing what works for you. If you're asking if one 'should' be doing this is then I would simply say no. What will one 200m burst at faster than tempo pace gain you? Daniel's suggests doing 4x200m after most LT runs which stimulates running fast on tired legs, but one 200m grit burst at the end of tempo run seems silly to me. If this helps you race better in any way, then do what works for you.

Donut Dan wrote:

If you think it helps you race better then by all means keep doing what works for you. If you're asking if one 'should' be doing this is then I would simply say no. What will one 200m burst at faster than tempo pace gain you? Daniel's suggests doing 4x200m after most LT runs which stimulates running fast on tired legs, but one 200m grit burst at the end of tempo run seems silly to me. If this helps you race better in any way, then do what works for you.

Do the fast finish tempo and then 3 more 200’s? Best of both worlds?

Trevelyan Harper wrote:

Do the fast finish tempo and then 3 more 200’s? Best of both worlds?

No. The way I do them is an LT paced run (use smart run calculator by Daniel's if you don't know what your LT pace is) of about 3 to 4 miles, then 4x 200s immediately afterwards. So 200 fast, 200 recovery, 200 fast, 200 recovery, 200 fast, 200 recovery, 200m fast, 200m recovery (then I'll usually easy jog a mile or two afterwards as a cool down). By fast is not suggesting all out 200m time trials. Think around mile pace, they should feel fast, controlled and done with good form. Not failing arms around gasping for air in the last 50m aka straining.

I don't like using the word tempo because people interpret tempo in many different ways.

That desire to mentally practice what a race should feel like is a mistake I see quite often. Some people aren't confident going into races unless they've hammered some hard workouts. They need to prove to themselves in training that they are ready to race, and this often leads to running too fast in training. Not all the time, but pretty often, this will leave those runners physically and mentally drained for the race, because they have spent too much effort proving their worth to themselves in training, resulting in a race that does not line up with the level of training.

So a faster 200 at the end of a tempo every once in a while? Not the biggest deal in the world and maybe not enough to see a noticeable difference, but all those little things add up. I'm on the side of just staying at LT pace/effort, and have a separate session in the week for speed work. Mentally, the best thing you can do is to train at the proper levels and trust that the training will allow you to race at your best, even if you haven't simulated the end of a race. Save that for the race.

Kind of reminds me of you train. At least by the videos you post.

Kicking at the end of tempos is great training. It helps you to develop the neural pathways for fast twitch fiber recruitment. It doesn't just help you to kick in races; it also helps you to recruit fast twitch fibers to maintain a hot pace as your slow twitch fibers fatigue.

Yes, you can get a similar benefit by ending the tempo and then doing repeats or hills (and you should do that too, as one 200 meter kick isn't a very big stimulus), but there's a mental benefit to learning to accelerate even when you're at your most tired. I'm always amazed by how many runners, even pretty fast ones, "kick" by only slightly increasing their pace from their average for the rest of the race. If all you ever do is well-rested strides and race-pace repeats, you're not going to be ready to put in an actual sprint when tired.

The main caveat is that you should make sure that your form isn't breaking down. If you're tying up or flailing, then you're practicing the wrong things and it's time to pull the plug. The effort should still be sub-maximal.

Ben Barrows wrote:

That desire to mentally practice what a race should feel like is a mistake I see quite often. Some people aren't confident going into races unless they've hammered some hard workouts. They need to prove to themselves in training that they are ready to race, and this often leads to running too fast in training. Not all the time, but pretty often, this will leave those runners physically and mentally drained for the race, because they have spent too much effort proving their worth to themselves in training, resulting in a race that does not line up with the level of training.

I agree to the extent that a need to prove oneself in workouts can lead to overtraining. But I don't think that practicing the feeling of racing is necessarily the same thing as "proving oneself." What the OP is describing is a very small, discrete add-on to a normal workout. It shouldn't be very taxing, but it does allow him to practice just one small but important part of racing. There are lots of ways to practice the mental aspects of racing without destroying oneself. In fact, I'd say that the main benefit of sustained tempos over broken tempos is the psychological training that prepares one to suffer without a break.

I also think that very few runners get themselves into trouble by training too hard, especially at middle distances. Where they have problems is in combining hard training with high density, so that they're not recovering. Very hard workouts are a big part of reaching your potential, so long as you take the time you need to absorb them properly and don't just keep hammering day after day.

Fast finish tempo runs?

Of course.

Yea. I think the issue is balance. If a 200 run not flat out but fast at the end of a tempo destroys me, I’ve run the tempo too fast (which I shouldn’t have done anyway fast finish or not).

As I’m sure we all agree, the tempo should be controlled, comfortably difficult and something from which one can speed up if they wanted to without digging deep and form breaking down.

If that builds up unnecessary fatigue then so would tagging on 200’s afterwards, right?

I just really like the idea of not getting so comfortable with hard running from a rested state so that it doesn’t feel alien in racing.

Also, just realised from the other post that you’re the Ben Barrows with the YouTube channel. I like your videos man! You can check it my channel by searching the name I’ve used here if you so wish.

Only properly started it this year. :)

It’s going to feature music and running.

I love a fast finish.

I agree with your premise. "Training" isn't just training the body. As Salazar said, it's also about callusing the mind. Training well is about assembling various element of the physical plant into a coherent and well-performing whole, but it's also about psychological preparation. The mind/body connection being what it is, one form that psychological preparation take is exactly what you describe, in my experience: speeding up when you want to slow down.

Getting back into shape, this past Sunday I did a 10-mile long run--which for me is a short long run--and in miles 8 and 9 I pushed things to marathon pace+ which for me is 85-87% of max HR. That's a comfortable sub-threshold pace once I'm warmed up. So I was there. In the final mile, I kicked it up and, very much in line with Kellogg's teachings, I found that I was sailing along at a HR of 95%, which is 5K effort, but was completely in control, not panting, just working hard and well and exactly where you'd want to be at that % of max.

THAT is where you want to be. I really felt as though I could have kicked it up another notch or two. So I sailed home like that.

It wasn't a formal tempo run. It was a progression run that served some of the same function as a tempo run. The key thing was the subjective feeling of being completely in control.

Now, when I do 3 mile tempo runs, they rarely have that feeling. I warm up 5 miles EZ, then do the tempo run. And I almost always find myself picking it up in the final mile, but I almost never feel as I felt in that 10-miler.

I haven't quite addressed your question, but perhaps I have. It's always a good idea to seek the place where you're blasting along, perfectly coordinated, not straining, yet really hitting it hard. That is NOT the same as pushing the pace in a tempo run, where your breathing was already slightly over the edge and now you're just adding insult to injury.

Just "pushing harder," by itself, means nothing, and is probably not a good practice in tempo runs. But significantly upping the pace and effort level at the end of what was otherwise a good, honest, but not over-the-top tempo run or progression run is almost always, I think, a good idea.

Just not every week.

KudzuRunner wrote:

Getting back into shape, this past Sunday I did a 10-mile long run--which for me is a short long run--and in miles 8 and 9 I pushed things to marathon pace+ which for me is 85-87% of max HR. That's a comfortable sub-threshold pace once I'm warmed up. So I was there. In the final mile, I kicked it up and, very much in line with Kellogg's teachings, I found that I was sailing along at a HR of 95%, which is 5K effort, but was completely in control, not panting, just working hard and well and exactly where you'd want to be at that % of max.

This part is really interesting to me. I nearly made a separate post about this. I didn't know HR could be so high without panting and difficulty breathing. But I often find that I'm running and feel controlled and relaxed but my HR shows a high reading around 90% or more. I figured this was an error on my watch or evidence of my weak aerobic base. I for some reason thought that training at such a high heart rate was bad. Especially if I'm quite far from my max speed.

Can you explain this for me?

P.S Sorry to derail my own post and embark on an unrelated tangent. Maybe PM me if that's against the Forum rules.

This kind of Special long run with fast finish is mostly of importance if the runner go for the half/marathon.