Mo Farah sues Ben Bloom

rekrunner wrote:

What I pretend now, after reading the ABP Guidelines v2.1:

- The Adaptive Model identified the high Hb of 16.2 g/dl as abnormal with a 99.9% probability or more

- There was never any "first expert", but it went directly to a three person panel, as described in the ABP Guidelines

- This three person panel concluded, quite possibly unanimously, that extended stay at high altitude likely caused the high Hb, and the 8-day delay likely caused a lower RET%

- Making it an open and shut case

You are on fire rekrunner!

1. "quite possibly unanimously" Inflate claims much? Why assume it ever got as far as referred to a panel? There is no way to know how many cases go to the three-expert panel. There is no way to know what the decisions are. There is no way to know who is on the panel. Have I made my point well enough?

2. that extended stay at high altitude is exactly how oxygen vector doping is masked.

Move to altitude where even a clean athlete's blood scores would go crazy. Because the athlete is in the testing pool, they fill out their whereabouts as "at altitude location XYZ" and take EPO-like drugs. Pretend a blood sample is taken from a doping athlete who has filed their whereabouts correctly, and doping at altitude. Scores are off the charts! Oh, but the athlete is at altitude. Case closed!

Athlete stops running EPO a few days before leaving altitude for their big event. Athlete has breakout performance and never tests positive in the best conditions. In the worst case the federation has a positive, then demands a bribe to bury the positive.

The IAAF is so dirty and the anti-doping process so secretive that it's very likely Radcliffe doped.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

2. that extended stay at high altitude is exactly how oxygen vector doping is masked.

Move to altitude where even a clean athlete's blood scores would go crazy. Because the athlete is in the testing pool, they fill out their whereabouts as "at altitude location XYZ" and take EPO-like drugs. Pretend a blood sample is taken from a doping athlete who has filed their whereabouts correctly, and doping at altitude. Scores are off the charts! Oh, but the athlete is at altitude. Case closed!

Athlete stops running EPO a few days before leaving altitude for their big event. Athlete has breakout performance and never tests positive in the best conditions. In the worst case the federation has a positive, then demands a bribe to bury the positive.

+1

Spot on there pop pop ?

Altitude training stimulates erythropoiesis which would also mask the use of rEPO. So many tricks of the trade that these dopers use.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

1. "quite possibly unanimously" Inflate claims much? Why assume it ever got as far as referred to a panel? There is no way to know how many cases go to the three-expert panel. There is no way to know what the decisions are. There is no way to know who is on the panel. Have I made my point well enough?

All that knowledge comes from the IAAF, which one may or may not trust.

After Coe as the new IAAF president loudly declared Paula to be innocent (despite not knowing anything about her case), before the begin of the investigation, his troops knew they had to clean her in writing. In doing so, they wrote paragraph after paragraph, during which a few damning things came up. Tee hee.

For example, that the 2012 case went to the panel of three panels, and wasn't shut down right away. Before that, we only learned that that she had suspicious values.

For example, that the IAAF took Paula's words as facts, instead of verifying them.

oordeel wrote:

mo farah, T and G dibaba and a bunch more.... I'd say that's more damning for Mo than the whole l-carnitine fiasco. That is entirely my opinion.

The l-carnitine fiasco has legs but this is a gigantic story that has vested interests trying to mute it.

1) Why not? Everyone else does. The IAAF did say that "the experts noted ... altitude". The use of the plural in "experts" led me to assume more than one. But you don't ask enough questions. How many times did "casual obsever" tell us, as if it were established fact and public knowledge, that the "first expert" did not believe altitude, and that "we know" the three-expert panel was a hung-jury, often accusing Saugy of being the sole altitude vote? All we "know" is that the conclusion was not unanimously "doping". Now we see that according to the ABP Guidelines v2.1, there are two paths to the three-expert panel, and only one of them involves a "first expert": i) "In case of abnormal values identified by the Adaptive Model or" ii) "profiles identified by one expert during the initial review, the file shall then be reviewed by a panel of three experts" So, which is it, did the first expert not believe altitude, or was there no first expert at all? Then, you are right, we don't know the vote of the three expert panel that concluded there was no basis to pursue the case. If we don't know the internal process, how does "casual obsever" "know" it was not unanimous for "altitude"? Is it "know" or "pretend". I asked three times for an explanation, without any response. I tried to find an authoritative source, and all I could find was "casual obsever" saying the same thing many times, over the last two years, and notably, I found no one else saying it. He oftens says "we know", but it looks like "we" really is just him, and that it is not really "knowledge" but "pretend". I did find the Sunday Time report that 11 out of 12 experts believed altitude. For some reason here, everyone without any direct knowledge, has decided to stand with the sole loser, while here I stand with 11 out of 12 experts. This 11 out of 12 finding also suggests "the three-expert panel vote" was either 2-1, or 3-0, in favor of altitude. 2) Altitude is also used as a legal substitute for EPO to achieve similar red-blood cell benefits.

Oh - good comeback. Yet another baseless statement.

Lets Tell It Like It Is wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

The Paula saga is essentially about performance.

These are two different things, but have one thing in common.

I argue against things that appear to lack basis.

No...you troll against things that have an established basis.

FTFY

Please share less gossip.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.11333ft.altitude.com wrote:

Please share more of your incredible knowledge and logic.

rekrunner wrote:

2) Altitude is also used as a legal substitute for EPO to achieve similar red-blood cell benefits.

Not really rek since Hb/Hct drops dramatically upon return to sea level. In this study, six (6) top Kenyon elites (3 Olympic medals, 5 WC medals, former WR holders) "living & training at altitude" (sound familiar?) experienced a dramatic reduction in Hb within seven (7) days upon descending to sea level (levels comparable to that of their sea level competitors; ~14.1 Hb/~42.3 Hct):

Blood dopers like to use altitude training to stimulate erythropoiesis during their withdrawal phase to keep the retics from dropping so rapidly which significantly affects the off-score of the ABP. It's not so much the re-infusion of the RBCs that affects the off-score (generous upper parameters) as much as the withdrawal phase. The ABP was primarily designed to counter blood doping more than the use of an ESA.

rekrunner wrote:

Please share less gossip.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.11333ft.altitude.com wrote:

Please share more of your incredible knowledge and logic.

I don't feel like it.

For example:

1972-B.Ekblum,et al. Response to Exercise after Blood Loss and Reinfusion.Journal of Applied Physiology.1972 Aug;33(2):175-80. publishes about hemoglobin changes and exercise performance changes after blood transfusions. In the same year, Lasse Viren wins the 5k and 10k gold at the Olympics, and repeats both wins in the 1976 Olympics. There were suspicions of blood transfusions by the Finns, but we will never know for sure.

1976-Waldemar Cierpinski cheats to win gold medal for East Germany over Frank Shorter.

1980-Cierpinski again wins marathon. Kaarlo Maaninka of Finland wins silver in 10k and bronze in 5k, and is found to have done blood transfusions.

1982-Francesco Conconi of Italy publishes journal articles about the anaerobic threshold, with variations on the CONCONI test being done to this day on runners and cyclists.

1984-Allberto Cova of Italy wins 10k Olympic gold and did blood transfusions. Marti Vainio of Finland wins silver in the 10k, but is caught with the anabolic steroid metenolone, which was possibly in his old stored blood which he transfused before the race, but forgot he was on metenolone when the blood was withdrawn for storage. He was not a very smart doper. It is also discovered that one third of the US Cycling team at the 1984 Olympics, which won 9 medals, were doing blood transfusions.

1985-blood transfusions are declared illegal and banned, but there is no test for detection.

1987-New England Journal of Medicine publishes trial of recombinant EPO called Epogen, made by the biotech firm Amgen. Amgen ironically goes on to be a major sponsor of the cycling Tour of California, where many of the riders are using its EPO product.

1987 - 5 Dutch cyclists die.

1988- 2 Dutch cyclists die. 1 Belgian cyclist dies.

1988- Dr. Francesco Conconi publishes a study on serum EPO levels in cross-country skiers:

1988-Salvatore Antibo from Italy wins Olympic silver in 10k and Gelindo Bordin wins the gold medal in the marathon. Bordin also wins Boston in 1990.

1989-Epogen approved by FDA for use in US.

1989-EPO moves into cycling in a big way. 5 more Dutch cyclists die.

1990- 2 more Dutch cyclists die and 3 more Belgian cyclists die.

1990- IOC bans EPO, but there is no test for detection of EPO.

1990-1991- track has 3 to 5 sub 13:10 5k perfomers and/or performances per year.

1991- Dr. Gabriele Rosa arrives in Kenya and sets up his first training camp.

1992- Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes of Spain (of later Operation Puerto fame) is a doctor in Spain as Fermin Cacho wins the 1500m at the Barcelona Olympics. Dieter Baumann wins the 5k and Khalid Skah wins the 10k.

1993-14 men break 13:10 a total of 21 times, while the Chinese women go on a rampage with Wang Junxia 29:31.78 10k WR, 8:06.11 3k WR, that still stand to this day. (New 29:17.45 by Alamaz Ayana in 2016 Update to come at the end of 2016.)

1993-2000-rampant EPO use with no test for detection and records are smashed, with huge depth of fast times by many people in track and cycling. Cyclists like Pantani and Riis pushing their hematocrits up to dangerous levels of 60 or 65%. Cycling finally institutes a hematocrit cutoff limit of a max hematocrit of 50% or you can't race and cyclists respond by all of them then having hematocrits of 48-49.5%, which is just a coincidence that they are all just below the limit...right?

A protege of the Italian Dr. Conconi, mentioned previously, went on to become much more famous. His name was Dr. Michele Ferrari, and he was the doctor to the stars of pro cycling. He was doctor to Lance Armstrong, who is the prototype for a pharmaceutical experiment gone mad disguised as an athlete. They did everything including EPO, autologous blood transfusions, the anabolic steroid testosterone, and Human Growth Hormone. What a name! You can't make this stuff up. The mad genius Dr. Ferrari really did turn his riders into Ferraris, with extra horsepower. He also did a great job making sure that 1) he kept Lance alive and didn't kill him and 2) that he somehow passed his drug tests. It was probably Ferrari that pioneered taking EPO by intravenous instead of subcutaneous injection, so that the EPO could be cleared faster, and the window for a positive epo test was then very small. Michele Ferrari is a very smart guy who is presently in trouble with tax authorities for hiding large amounts of money in secret bank accounts (that are not secret now) and he is also banned for life from cycling.

2000-first urine test for EPO detection is developed and used at the Olympics. The test improved around 2005. The new test for EPO leads athletes back to the old method of blood transfusions, to avoid detection.

2004-Italian Stefano Baldini wins gold medal in marathon. American Tyler Hamilton is caught doing a heterologous blood tranfusion of someone else's blood at the Olympics, where he won the gold medal. His B test at the Olympics had problems and he kept the medal on a technicality, but finally returned the medal in 2011. His lawyers used the famous "Tyler is a human chimera with a vanishing twin" defense to explain why he had blood from two different people in his bloodstream...which wins the comedy prize for funniest doping excuse ever.

2006- Operation Puerto with Dr. Fuentes and 200 bags of blood, steroids.

2008-CERA (Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator), a new longer acting agent, with a much longer half-life 20x longer than EPO, is appoved for use in Jan, 2008 under the name Mircera. Rashid Ramzi tests positive for CERA at the 2008 Olympics, and loses his gold medal.

2009- Athlete Biological Passport (ABP) is started.

2009-2015-development of EPO mimetic peptides such as peginesatide.

There has also been recent development of orally active Hypoxia-Inducible Factor (HIF) stabilizers. You can take a pill which works like EPO. The company Fibrinogen has compounds FG-2216, FG-4592, and FG-4497, which stabilize HIF by inhibiting the enzyme prolyl-hydroxylase, which is involved in the breakdown of HIF-1alpha by the ubiquitin proteosome pathway. HIF is a transcription factor which increases the gene expression of about 200 different genes, including the gene for EPO. Increased levels of HIF-1 alpha signals cells in the kidney to increase transcription of erythropoietin (EPO), which travels to the bone marrow, binds to progenitor cells, and increases erythropoiesis, which is the production of new red blood cells. This is the mechanism of action of HIF stabilizers.

Another compound involved with HIF is cobalt chloride, which also acts as an HIF stabilizer, is orally active, but is not recommended, as it is toxic to the gastrointestinal system, thyroid, heart, liver and kidney. It may also cause cancer. There is now a blood test to test for cobalt levels.

Other recent research is looking at inhalation of the noble gases Xenon, and Krypton, as HIF activators of erythropoiesis. They have been used by Russian athletes. The compounds have recently been banned and there is now a test for them. The cheaters are always finding new ways to cheat and the testers are always trying to find new ways to catch the cheaters.

For further reading, check out: Simon Beuck, et al. Hypoxia-inducible factor stabilizers and other small-molecule erythropoiesis stimulating agents in current and preventive doping analysis. Drug Testing and Analysis 2012 Nov;4(11):830-45., which is from their special issue on Sports Drug Testing for Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents and Autologous Blood Transfusion. There are many interesting articles in this issue.

For more reading on the physiology and mechanism of action:

The study doesn't contradict why clean athletes train at altitude. In fact, for the non-Kenyans, the study reaffirms the desired red-blood cell benefit: "Scores had not returned fully to baseline three weeks after return to sea level, because of the persistence of the raised haemoglobin concentration..."

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

2) Altitude is also used as a legal substitute for EPO to achieve similar red-blood cell benefits.

Not really rek since Hb/Hct drops dramatically upon return to sea level. In this study, six (6) top Kenyon elites (3 Olympic medals, 5 WC medals, former WR holders) "living & training at altitude" (sound familiar?) experienced a dramatic reduction in Hb within seven (7) days upon descending to sea level (levels comparable to that of their sea level competitors; ~14.1 Hb/~42.3 Hct)

Well unfortunately there were plenty of people just like you on the sides of proven cheats like Lance Armstrong and Chris Froome and we all see how that worked out. Paula and Mo may have been more discreet and smart, but that doesn't mean they are innocent. They may never get officially caught but those in the know can join the shady dots.

Jerry Maguire wrote:

Few times is will say this. But, GOD BLESS AMERICA.

The first amendment is truly amazing and we are lucky to have it.

This reminds me of Lance.

Farah is a dirty dirty cheat.

The USA did not luck into the first ammendment.

I see that they have already found needles at the Commonwealth games. Apparently, Indian boxers.

I see the same pattern -- you've already made up your own mind while possessing a few facts, mixed in with some fantasy. Now there are no more questions in your mind. How is it dirty pool in "these debates" when the deleted posts have little to do with "these debates"? I have in the past, but when did I point out *last week* anything about the "Terms and Conditions"?

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

No kidding casual observer! This is getting ridiculous - I posted a response to your post yesterday which was subsequently deleted. No question in my mind now that rekrunner is a moderator and deletes posts that he doesn't like and then acts like he doesn't know anything abou it. He plays dirty pool when it comes to these debates, but just like he so arrogantly pointed out last week moderators (rekrunner) can delete anything they want for any reason they want. Definitely lame!

Once I saw the evidence, I was one of the people against Lance, because I assessed the quality of the evidence against him as quite strong. There is nothing that rises to that level of quality for Mo and Paula. I'm not on the inside. Maybe everyone is right, and Paula and Mo are not innocent, but the quality of the combined sum of evidence against them requires adding liberal amounts of faith to conclude that 1) they doped, and 2) that it was only because of doping they were able to run fast times. You call it "joining the shady dots", and this is done by people who do not know. Mo and Paula will officially not get caught because there is nothing to build a case against them.

Rono. wrote:

Well unfortunately there were plenty of people just like you on the sides of proven cheats like Lance Armstrong and Chris Froome and we all see how that worked out. Paula and Mo may have been more discreet and smart, but that doesn't mean they are innocent. They may never get officially caught but those in the know can join the shady dots.

I think innocent until proven guilty, and after years of stories, we are still there without proof of guilt. I know you know you are making unreliable conclusions from unreliable data. It seems like, with your stated background, you should know better. I think the volumes of your off-topic posts are an effort to hide the fact that they lack substantial content.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.11333ft.altitude.com wrote:

rekrunner thinks that Ms. Paula Radcliffe is clean.

Yes. Same old, same old. Deletions are his last defense. And then he starts all over again a la bad faith, unreliable data, nothing to see here, and so on. Lame. Say wejo, how about having only mods who are known to the board and who may only delete posts that violate your rules?

Everyone's looking for an edge wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

Great, now rekrunner started deleting posts again. Lame.

No fun, when trolls have mod power.

No kidding casual observer! This is getting ridiculous - I posted a response to your post yesterday which was subsequently deleted. No question in my mind now that rekrunner is a moderator and deletes posts that he doesn't like and then acts like he doesn't know anything abou it. He plays dirty pool when it comes to these debates, but just like he so arrogantly pointed out last week moderators (rekrunner) can delete anything they want for any reason they want. Definitely lame!

rekrunner wrote:

Once I saw the evidence, I was one of the people against Lance, because I assessed the quality of the evidence against him as quite strong.

That's only because he confessed to Oprah and was looking for empathy. I bet you thought up to that point he was clean as a whistle passing some 500+ drug tests and not tripping his ABP in the 09 & 10 seasons. Passing drug controls & not tripping your ABP means absolutely nothing. It's just an illusion for an athlete to hide behind and claim all is well & good. Lance was the master of anti-doping counter measures. He could probably teach a class on it. ?