Exactly, a world record attempt in which the protagonist has no interest in running fast. In 86, Aouita was not in 1500 world record shape.
I list those stats to show how unbelievable stupid this guy is (runner A on one occasion was better against runner B than runner C was on some occasion against this B - therefore A must be much better than B).
And, no, I don't want to say thank you to someone who has lied dozens and dozens of times since his first appearance in this forum with the only intention to downgrade any African runner who ever competed.
It wasn't a WR attempt because Aouita decided not to go with the pacers.
Why are you listing all these results from 88 and 89 when Coe was in his 30's? Aouita was in his prime in 86 and Coe was close to his and close to top form after he recovered from his virus post Commonwealths?
And how about you thank Coevett for posting races of Coe and Aouita (and Bile) that likely nobody here has seen for nearly 40 years?
Exactly, a world record attempt in which the protagonist has no interest in running fast. In 86, Aouita was not in 1500 world record shape.
I list those stats to show how unbelievable stupid this guy is (runner A on one occasion was better against runner B than runner C was on some occasion against this B - therefore A must be much better than B).
And, no, I don't want to say thank you to someone who has lied dozens and dozens of times since his first appearance in this forum with the only intention to downgrade any African runner who ever competed.
It wasn't a WR attempt because Aouita decided not to go with the pacers.
Why are you listing all these results from 88 and 89 when Coe was in his 30's? Aouita was in his prime in 86 and Coe was close to his and close to top form after he recovered from his virus post Commonwealths?
And how about you thank Coevett for posting races of Coe and Aouita (and Bile) that likely nobody here has seen for nearly 40 years?
Exactly, a world record attempt in which the protagonist has no interest in running fast. In 86, Aouita was not in 1500 world record shape.
I list those stats to show how unbelievable stupid this guy is (runner A on one occasion was better against runner B than runner C was on some occasion against this B - therefore A must be much better than B).
And, no, I don't want to say thank you to someone who has lied dozens and dozens of times since his first appearance in this forum with the only intention to downgrade any African runner who ever competed.
Btw, I have seen those races many times.
...therefore A must be much better than C.
Aouita in 86 made his first try over 10000 with the intention to better the world record in La Coruna early in 87 and than to double over 5000/10000 in Rome (it didn't happen).
He probably wouldn't have had a serious chance against Cram and Coe in top shape over 1500.
Aouita has beaten Gonzalez (2x 1500), Gonzalez has beaten Coe (1500)
Aouita has beaten Zdravkovic (2x 1500/Mile), Zdravkovic has beaten Coe (1500)
1985
Aouita has beaten Gonzalez (1500/2000/5000), Gonzalez has beaten Coe (Mile)
Aouita has beaten Deleze (1500/2000), Deleze has beaten Coe (2x 1500/Mile)
1988
Aouita has beaten McKean (800, 1000), McKean has beaten Coe (800)
Aouita has beaten Barbosa (3x800), Barbosa has beaten Coe (800)
Aouita has beaten Passey (2x 1500/Mile), Passey has beaten Coe (1500)
1989
Aouita has beaten Kirochi (2x 1500/Mile), Kirochi has beaten Coe (1500)
The Berlin Mile in 86 was not a world record attempt.
It wasn't a WR attempt because Aouita decided not to go with the pacers.
Why are you listing all these results from 88 and 89 when Coe was in his 30's? Aouita was in his prime in 86 and Coe was close to his and close to top form after he recovered from his virus post Commonwealths?
And how about you thank Coevett for posting races of Coe and Aouita (and Bile) that likely nobody here has seen for nearly 40 years?
At last you choose an alias that suits you, Coevett.
And I have watched both those races this year with my kids. You think too highly of yourself.
It wasn't a WR attempt because Aouita decided not to go with the pacers.
Why are you listing all these results from 88 and 89 when Coe was in his 30's? Aouita was in his prime in 86 and Coe was close to his and close to top form after he recovered from his virus post Commonwealths?
And how about you thank Coevett for posting races of Coe and Aouita (and Bile) that likely nobody here has seen for nearly 40 years?
Exactly, a world record attempt in which the protagonist has no interest in running fast. In 86, Aouita was not in 1500 world record shape.
I list those stats to show how unbelievable stupid this guy is (runner A on one occasion was better against runner B than runner C was on some occasion against this B - therefore A must be much better than B).
And, no, I don't want to say thank you to someone who has lied dozens and dozens of times since his first appearance in this forum with the only intention to downgrade any African runner who ever competed.
Btw, I have seen those races many times.
I gave the example of Aouita struggling to hold off Gonzalez two weeks before Cram and Coe obliterated him in the European Championships. Unfortunately, we never got to see Aouita and Coe race each other, comparing their performance against common opponents in the same week or two is about as good as it gets.
Your list doesn't even prove anything in regards Aouita or Coe.
Aouita has beaten McKean (800, 1000), McKean has beaten Coe (800)
Yes, Aouita was probably better over 800 in 1988 than a 32 year old Coe coming back from a year of injury. What's your point exactly as regards this thread's question?
Exactly, a world record attempt in which the protagonist has no interest in running fast. In 86, Aouita was not in 1500 world record shape.
I list those stats to show how unbelievable stupid this guy is (runner A on one occasion was better against runner B than runner C was on some occasion against this B - therefore A must be much better than B).
And, no, I don't want to say thank you to someone who has lied dozens and dozens of times since his first appearance in this forum with the only intention to downgrade any African runner who ever competed.
Btw, I have seen those races many times.
I gave the example of Aouita struggling to hold off Gonzalez two weeks before Cram and Coe obliterated him in the European Championships. Unfortunately, we never got to see Aouita and Coe race each other, comparing their performance against common opponents in the same week or two is about as good as it gets.
Your list doesn't even prove anything in regards Aouita or Coe.
Aouita has beaten McKean (800, 1000), McKean has beaten Coe (800)
Yes, Aouita was probably better over 800 in 1988 than a 32 year old Coe coming back from a year of injury. What's your point exactly as regards this thread's question?
My point here just is to show your stupidity.
The thread topic? Who would have won over 1500/Mile? Depends so much when, where, which type of competition and so on. Aouita at his best (Nice 85?) probably was little bit better than Coe at his best (Stockholm 81?). Who would have won? No idea.
Since you are just interested in objectivity, Coevett.
Sydney Maree (20 days older than Coe!) was one of the most dangerous middle distance runners of the 80s (very inconsistent, but capable to beat anyone).
Coe raced him 3 times (3 victories).
Aouita raced him 30 times (27 victories)
Or Jose-Luis Gonzalez (15 months younger than Coe), also one of the greats of the 80s.
Coe raced him 8 times (5 victories, 2 defeats)
Aouita raced him 18 times (17 victories)
Coe is the greatest middle distance runner in history, but he didn't race the other greats very often (Aouita never)
Cram also did not want to run against Aouita in Nice in '87 and '88 and went on to race 800m both times (badly). I also know of some races that Coe rescheduled after hearing who was in the race (Zurich 800m in 1985, was not happy to contest Aouita in '84 over 1500m), but also Ovett. As far as I know, Steve never ran in Zurich (very strange as Zurich was top meet these days), but was regular in Brussels, except in '81 when Coe was in the race and broke Ovett's mile WR.
Aouita even avoided Marcus O'Sullivan during the U.S. indoor season in '89 after hearing from meet director that guy ran 3:50 mile a year before. Aouita asked - Really? I've never heard of him.
But some legends as John Walker and Steve Scott never avoided anyone. They just raced often and (mostly) fast.
Well, if you're claiming that Coe switched to the 1500m in Zurich 85 to avoid Cram and Cruz, he didn't chicken out of racing Cram in the Bislett mile (when he knew he wasn't in top shape), and he raced against Cruz over 800m the following week in Cologne. Coe always ran the 1500m in Zurich. I think he ran it 8 or 9 times, and won 6 times.
Here he is getting pipped by Steve Scott at Zurich 86. He was just coming back after his virus infection that caused him to pull out of the Commonwealth Games. That was a real chance for Aouita to claim a victory over Coe, but guess what? Aouita ran the 3000m that night.
Boxer A, Joe Frazier. Boxer B, George Foreman. Boxer C, M. Ali. M. Ali and Joe Frazier fought relatively evenly. George Foreman destroyed Joe Frazier. According to logic, George Foreman should have destroyed M. Ali.
Here is Aouita being paced by Abdi Bile in a 1986 world record attempt at the mile in Berlin. Aouita doesn't follow the pace and has to fight hard to hold off Gonzalez.
Compare with how easily Coe and Cram deal with Gonzalez 2 weeks later in the European Championship 1500m final :
I guess these are slightly different race scenarios. The 1986 euros was a relatively slow and tactical race which Coe and Cram were able to dominate due to their great 800m speed while turning on the afterburners on the last lap. However, in an overall faster type of 1500m/mile race, Gonzalez started to shine as he had better 5000m endurance than either Coe or Cram. Gonzalez beat Coe in the fast Oslo dream mile in 1985 where Cram set the world record and he also beat Coe in 1983 in another faster 1500m type of race where Coe was trying to blow the field apart in Paris with a long run for home - only Gonzalez could go with him. In a faster type of 1500m/mile race I would therefore not be surprised if someone like Aouita would have had trouble with a guy like Gonzalez....
Coe always ran the 1500m in Zurich. I think he ran it 8 or 9 times, and won 6 times.
You almost got it. He ran it 6 times and won 3 times (50%).
They didn't have a 1500 there in 81, they had a mile, so that should be included. Coe won 4 (1500/mile) out of 7. Won in 79, 80, 81 & 84, his best years. Lost by a couple of tenths in 85 and by similar margins in 86 and 89.
I gave the example of Aouita struggling to hold off Gonzalez two weeks before Cram and Coe obliterated him in the European Championships. Unfortunately, we never got to see Aouita and Coe race each other, comparing their performance against common opponents in the same week or two is about as good as it gets.
Your list doesn't even prove anything in regards Aouita or Coe.
Yes, Aouita was probably better over 800 in 1988 than a 32 year old Coe coming back from a year of injury. What's your point exactly as regards this thread's question?
My point here just is to show your stupidity.
The thread topic? Who would have won over 1500/Mile? Depends so much when, where, which type of competition and so on. Aouita at his best (Nice 85?) probably was little bit better than Coe at his best (Stockholm 81?). Who would have won? No idea.
You're really dumb. Coe would have ran sub 3:29 in Stockholm without the suicidal first lap, even most of his haters here accept that. He would certainly have beaten Aouita's WR in 86 when he was past his best, if the pacemaker hadn't got in his way again. Aouita was never near sub 3:29, despite having far more serious WR attempts than Coe did.
Since you are just interested in objectivity, Coevett.
Sydney Maree (20 days older than Coe!) was one of the most dangerous middle distance runners of the 80s (very inconsistent, but capable to beat anyone).
Coe raced him 3 times (3 victories).
Aouita raced him 30 times (27 victories)
Or Jose-Luis Gonzalez (15 months younger than Coe), also one of the greats of the 80s.
Coe raced him 8 times (5 victories, 2 defeats)
Aouita raced him 18 times (17 victories)
Coe is the greatest middle distance runner in history, but he didn't race the other greats very often (Aouita never)
You're just picking statistics out of your behind. Gonzalez may have been only 15 months younger than Coe, but he made his breakthrough later, so when he was on the A circuit, Coe was missing entire years due to viruses and injuries. Are you saying Coe was afraid of Gonzalez? Coe raced the likes of Scott, Deleze and Gonzalez even when he was clearly below par. Aouita ducked all the Brits at the major championships until 1988 (other than 83) and when only an injury plagued Cram was left. He freely admits that. He chose the 5000m even though he preferred the 1500 (and the 1500 would have brought him far more glory) because he knew he had a better chance of winning it.
People criticized Jake Wightman for supposedly 'ducking' Jakob after the World Championships. If Jakob had somehow decided to miss the 1500 at the World Championships because he openly declared that he had a better chance of beating the Africans in the 5000m than he did of beating Wightman in the 1500, do you think it would still be fair to say Wightman 'ducked him' AFTER the WCs? That's basically what you idiots are claiming when you say Coe avoided Aouita in Zurich after the LA Games.
Since you are just interested in objectivity, Coevett.
Sydney Maree (20 days older than Coe!) was one of the most dangerous middle distance runners of the 80s (very inconsistent, but capable to beat anyone).
Coe raced him 3 times (3 victories).
Aouita raced him 30 times (27 victories)
Or Jose-Luis Gonzalez (15 months younger than Coe), also one of the greats of the 80s.
Coe raced him 8 times (5 victories, 2 defeats)
Aouita raced him 18 times (17 victories)
Coe is the greatest middle distance runner in history, but he didn't race the other greats very often (Aouita never)
You're just picking statistics out of your behind. Gonzalez may have been only 15 months younger than Coe, but he made his breakthrough later, so when he was on the A circuit, Coe was missing entire years due to viruses and injuries. Are you saying Coe was afraid of Gonzalez? Coe raced the likes of Scott, Deleze and Gonzalez even when he was clearly below par. Aouita ducked all the Brits at the major championships until 1988 (other than 83) and when only an injury plagued Cram was left. He freely admits that. He chose the 5000m even though he preferred the 1500 (and the 1500 would have brought him far more glory) because he knew he had a better chance of winning it.
People criticized Jake Wightman for supposedly 'ducking' Jakob after the World Championships. If Jakob had somehow decided to miss the 1500 at the World Championships because he openly declared that he had a better chance of beating the Africans in the 5000m than he did of beating Wightman in the 1500, do you think it would still be fair to say Wightman 'ducked him' AFTER the WCs? That's basically what you idiots are claiming when you say Coe avoided Aouita in Zurich after the LA Games.
Coe is the greatest middle distance runner in history, but he didn't race the other greats very often, that's what I'm saying - comprehenda?
Aouita has not "ducked" all the Brits. In 84 he choose the easier option for winning the 1st Gold ever for Morocco. That's it.
His long term plan included to run the 5 and 10 in 87 and the 8 and 15 in 88.
Coe and Ovett (same country, almost same age, almost same events) were the two who wrote one of the strangest chapters in athletics history for meeting each other on dozens of occasions but running different events on each.
Coe is the greatest middle distance runner in history, but he didn't race the other greats very often, that's what I'm saying - comprehenda?
I understand that you're cherry picking athletes who were either much younger than him or reached their peak much later than him, in order to prove your point. Also, as the greatest ever middle-distance runner, do you not think it's possible other runners were avoiding him at his peak? Why did Coe face both Cram (and Gonzalez) and Cruz in 85 on the circuit, when he was suffering injury problems and they were at their peak?
Surprised you haven't claimed that Coe was avoiding Aouita between 1978 and 82.
Coe and Ovett was a strange chapter in athletics, and it was a large part due to the fact that athletics was at it's peak in popularity of all time, with GB being the biggest spectator base, and you had arguably the two greatest British runners of all-time competing in the same events, and with the media portraying them as different types of people, creating possibly the greatest rivalry in any sport in history.
In other words, a race between Coe and Ovett in 81 could have made both of them millions. Hard to imagine now when the winner of the entire Diamond League makes $40,000 (around $5000 in 1981 terms) However if one had lost badly to the other, especially Ovett having been beaten by Coe over 1500 in Moscow, that money making potential would have diminished greatly. So it took a while to get an agreement with promotors, and they ended up signing a contract to race each other 5 times over varying distances in 1982. If neither had been injured, both would have ran the 800 and 1500 at the Commonwealths and Europeans that year, so would have faced each other at least 9 times.
In the meantime, they were both making money breaking each other's world records, and both raising their profile and ability to command top dollar for that 1982 agreement. Both could probably have obliterated the 1500m and mile WRs and set times that would have remained until El G came along. The quite ridiculous pacemaking by Robinson for Coe likely was deliberate and Coe may well have been in on it.
Look at heavyweight boxing. Tyson Fury and Anthony Johnson could have made tens of millions for fighting each other this time last year, but both them and their camps demand the maximum they can get, so negotiations drag on and both end up losing out. It's not so much a case of 'avoiding each other', it's about professional athletes trying to get the pay they deserve. Coe and Ovett were at the very start of the professional era, so this was all new to everybody at the time as well.
First time I've seen this race. Bile attacking Aouita's WR in 1989, but gets completely messed up by the British pacemaker Anthony Morell. Would have got very close otherwise. This was the same season he got pushed to the line by a 33 year old Seb Coe (who would likely have won if he hadn't been impeded by Bile).