Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

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  • Coevett
    registered
    11 months ago 01/25/2020 11:45pm CST
    re: Cogito Ergo Sum
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    Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
    Blunt wrote:

    Coevett wrote:

    Coe Caters to Millenials... wrote:

    Aouita would win and he wouldn't get rid of the 5000m and 3000m steeplechase either.


    Well we'll never know because Aouita dodged Coe every time.

    I'd take Aouita's opinion of whether or not he could beat Coe over a random internet guy.

    And you could argue that it was Aouita - first of the great African dopers - who more than any other man in athletics history got us to the present point, where steps such as dropping the 5000 and 3000sc are deemed necessary to save the sport.


    Do you believe Aouita could have won the 1988 OG 5000m?


    If Aouita trained specifically for the 5000m in 1988 then I am confident he would have beaten Ngugi in the final.

    13:11 is an easy time for Aouita.


    Aouita got destroyed by Ngugi in 1989, when Aouita was back training for the 5000m and had just broken the 3000m WR.

    But who cares about whether one cheat can beat another cheat? This thread is about one of the last great clean runners in history vs arguably the first great doping era cheat. That's what makes it so interesting. The problem is that the cheat (Aouita) was so low in moral character, that he never dared face off against Coe in competition.
  • Deanouk
    registered
    11 months ago 01/26/2020 7:00am CST
    re: Coevett
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    Coevett wrote:

    Aouita got destroyed by Ngugi in 1989, when Aouita was back training for the 5000m and had just broken the 3000m WR.

    But who cares about whether one cheat can beat another cheat? This thread is about one of the last great clean runners in history vs arguably the first great doping era cheat. That's what makes it so interesting. The problem is that the cheat (Aouita) was so low in moral character, that he never dared face off against Coe in competition.


    As much as I agree with you about Coe in most things, Aouita was a great middle/distance runner, one of the greatest of all time, and the fact is that he was never tested positive. I can see some of your suspiscions about his career trajectory, but in the end it can only be an opinion (however strongly held) that he doped. I agree though, that his coaching career has cast some shadows over his racing career.
    I think there was some avoidance of Coe at work in his career (e.g. Paris 83, where Coe was actually beaten by Gonzales!, LA 84 and Zurich 89), but then in Zurich 84 Aouita (allegedly) asked to run in the 1500 at the last minute v Coe, who himself wanted a paced attempt at the 1500mWR; which was quite a reasonable proposal, given that he was the newly crowned Olympic champion and hadn't been in the form for such an attempt in 3 years; and was told no, unless he (Aouita) was willing to take the pace on the 3rd lap! He refused and claimed Coe was avoiding him . Coe had stated that he would run against Aouita but it would become a race situation, not a record attempt, but the promoter wanted a record by Coe more than a race with Aouita, which he feared would become tactical. There are many ways of interpretting this.

    I don't recall Aouita being beaten by Ngugi in 89! In fact, Aouita beat Ngugi convincingly over 5k in Zurich, a few days before his 3000m WR. I think you're thinking of Ondieki, who beat Aouita in a 5k in Seville by 11 secs, in his (Aouita's) first outdoor race of the 89 season.
  • Baron Coe
    11 months ago 01/27/2020 8:23pm CST
    re: Deanouk
    Forum Index

    Head to head according to ARRS is 3 to 1 in Aouita's favour over Ngugi including 2 races over 5000m in 1989.

    Date Flags Type Distance Site Race John Ngugi Said Aouita
    01 Sep 1989 OT 5 km Fontvieille MON IAAF Grand Prix Final 13:25.40
    (4)
    13:06.36
    (1)
    16 Aug 1989 OT 5 km Zurich SUI Weltklasse 13:25.50
    (3)
    13:24.45
    (1)
    06 Sep 1987 OT 5 km Rome ITA IAAF World Championships 13:34.04
    (12)
    13:26.44
    (1)
    29 Mar 1987 XC 9.5 km San Vittore Olona ITA Cinque Mulini 30:41
    (2)
    DNF
    Head to head score 1 3
  • Ezra Koenig
    11 months ago 02/18/2020 3:42am CST
    re: Frenzel
    Forum Index
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6aH0TlRWuY

    How can anyone be better than this running technique. So fast, so smooth!
  • Coevett
    registered
    9 months ago 04/14/2020 4:04pm CDT
    re: Frenzel
    Forum Index

    People forget that Aouita never won a major 1500m or Mile race in his life.

    He only ever had two major 1500m races - Helsinki in 82 where he got the bronze (despite being the favorite in many people's eyes) and in Nice in 85, when he let Cram get a huge gap on him.

    Yes, he was a good at time trials, and could win golds at 5000m when he was about 10 seconds better than anybody else, but did Aouita ever win a race against somebody on the same level as him?
  • Puck Moonen
    8 months ago 05/16/2020 10:30pm CDT
    re: Frenzel
    Forum Index
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOaY08utCmw

    Interesting to see he ranked Aouita above Coe.

    I would not agree with that. Coe's records were more impressive.
  • Strange way to tell me you love me
    5 months ago 07/30/2020 11:07am CDT
    re: Puck Moonen
    Forum Index

    Coe would have had trouble with Cacho in this race, much less sniffed the front of the field.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jrqsbD3Pc
  • what to think about this?
    5 months ago 08/10/2020 8:20am CDT
    re: Deanouk
    Forum Index
    Deanouk wrote:
    Deanouk = idiot wrote:

    Before you call me an idiot, bear in mind that I am Portuguese, I am way more knowledgeable about non-UK athletics than you are ans also, you have no flipping idea what "Caucasian" means, if you think Joaquim is one.

    This is evidence of your ignorance:

    "Where do you think most Brazilians originate from? Clue, they speak Portuguese!"

    LOL

    What an idiot you are. And ignorant too.

    LOL. Well, you certainly aren't posting under a consistent handle name, which would lead someone to suspect that you really aren't confident about your own comments.


    Says the poster who posts under different names - hypocrite.
  • Jellicoe
    4 months ago 08/31/2020 7:20am CDT
    re: Strange way to tell me you love me
    Forum Index
    Strange way to tell me you love me wrote:
    Coe would have had trouble with Cacho in this race, much less sniffed the front of the field.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jrqsbD3Pc


    Looks Coe would struggle with Jakob Ingebrigtsen lol.
  • S Coe v. J. Ingebrigtsen
    4 months ago 08/31/2020 10:55am CDT
    re: Jellicoe
    Forum Index
    Jellicoe wrote:
    Strange way to tell me you love me wrote:
    Coe would have had trouble with Cacho in this race, much less sniffed the front of the field.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6jrqsbD3Pc


    Looks Coe would struggle with Jakob Ingebrigtsen lol.


    I am not a fan of either man. I will state this.

    Jakob Ingebigtsen could not beat S. Coe AND win a 1500m race. If Ingebrigtsen were pulled to 3:28.0 by two or three 3:26.xx &/or 3:27.xx guys, J. Ingebrigtsen could finish 3rd or 4th while S. Coe finished further back in the pack. There is no way J Ingebrigtsen could beat S. Coe in an Olympic or W.C. final 1500m with J Inge. finishing 1st.
  • mr. nice guy
    registered
    4 months ago 08/31/2020 11:57am CDT
    re: Coevett
    Forum Index
    one of the last great clean runners in history

    and also about coe, the uk government project
  • Jellicoe
    4 months ago 09/01/2020 4:35am CDT
    re: Coevett
    Forum Index
    Coevett wrote:
    Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
    Blunt wrote:

    Coevett wrote:

    Coe Caters to Millenials... wrote:

    Aouita would win and he wouldn't get rid of the 5000m and 3000m steeplechase either.


    Well we'll never know because Aouita dodged Coe every time.

    I'd take Aouita's opinion of whether or not he could beat Coe over a random internet guy.

    And you could argue that it was Aouita - first of the great African dopers - who more than any other man in athletics history got us to the present point, where steps such as dropping the 5000 and 3000sc are deemed necessary to save the sport.


    Do you believe Aouita could have won the 1988 OG 5000m?


    If Aouita trained specifically for the 5000m in 1988 then I am confident he would have beaten Ngugi in the final.

    13:11 is an easy time for Aouita.


    Aouita got destroyed by Ngugi in 1989, when Aouita was back training for the 5000m and had just broken the 3000m WR.

    But who cares about whether one cheat can beat another cheat? This thread is about one of the last great clean runners in history vs arguably the first great doping era cheat. That's what makes it so interesting. The problem is that the cheat (Aouita) was so low in moral character, that he never dared face off against Coe in competition.


    Trust Coevett to get his facts completely wrong.
  • TUEs are essential
    4 months ago 09/01/2020 6:12am CDT
    re: Michele Ferrari
    Forum Index
    Michele Ferrari wrote:

    I've always found it convenient El Guerrouj discovered he had asthma in 2004 when his form prior to the OG was poor.

    He then goes on to win 1500m and 5000m.

    Suspicious no?


    This has happened before but in cycling. Bradley Wiggins almost died because of severe asthma in the 2012 Tour de France but high dose corticosteroid injections literally saved his life and after this essential medical treatment he applied some true grit and managed to win the Tour.

    In a more recent case, Chris Froome was literally at death's door in the 2017 Vuelta a Espagna because of severe asthma to the extent that his lungs were almost collapsing. He was treated with ultra high does of salbutamol to the extent that even if a normal person took 5000 puffs of their asthma inhaler in an hour, they would never reach the levels of salbutamol that Froome had to be treated with. This was compounded by the fact that Froome was also suffering from kidney failure during the Vuelta a Espanga to the extent than none of his drugs tests were reliable because his kidneys were literally unable to excrete anything from his blood. Anyway with another display of true British grit, and with the help of life-saving essential medical treatment, Froome overcame these ailments and actually managed to win the 2017 Vuelta a Espagna which was one of cycling's all time great performances....
  • Von Trips
    registered
    4 months ago 09/01/2020 9:38pm CDT
    re: Jellicoe
    Forum Index
    Jellicoe wrote:
    Coevett wrote:
    Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
    Blunt wrote:

    Coevett wrote:

    Coe Caters to Millenials... wrote:

    Aouita would win and he wouldn't get rid of the 5000m and 3000m steeplechase either.


    Well we'll never know because Aouita dodged Coe every time.

    I'd take Aouita's opinion of whether or not he could beat Coe over a random internet guy.

    And you could argue that it was Aouita - first of the great African dopers - who more than any other man in athletics history got us to the present point, where steps such as dropping the 5000 and 3000sc are deemed necessary to save the sport.


    Do you believe Aouita could have won the 1988 OG 5000m?


    If Aouita trained specifically for the 5000m in 1988 then I am confident he would have beaten Ngugi in the final.

    13:11 is an easy time for Aouita.


    Aouita got destroyed by Ngugi in 1989, when Aouita was back training for the 5000m and had just broken the 3000m WR.

    But who cares about whether one cheat can beat another cheat? This thread is about one of the last great clean runners in history vs arguably the first great doping era cheat. That's what makes it so interesting. The problem is that the cheat (Aouita) was so low in moral character, that he never dared face off against Coe in competition.


    Trust Coevett to get his facts completely wrong.


    I think Coevett meant to say Yobes Ondeiki who beat Aouita in Seville over 5000m in 1989 by 11 seconds.
  • zxczxzxcv
    2 months ago 11/15/2020 2:48pm CST
    re: Coevett
    Forum Index
    Coevett wrote:
    People forget that Aouita never won a major 1500m or Mile race in his life.

    He only ever had two major 1500m races - Helsinki in 82 where he got the bronze (despite being the favorite in many people's eyes) and in Nice in 85, when he let Cram get a huge gap on him.

    Yes, he was a good at time trials, and could win golds at 5000m when he was about 10 seconds better than anybody else, but did Aouita ever win a race against somebody on the same level as him?


    +1
  • zxcvxzcv
    2 months ago 11/15/2020 3:20pm CST
    re: zxczxzxcv
    Forum Index

    False, Coevett and copycat. Said Aouita won Weltklasse in the Mile in 1985 in 3:46.92 over Bile, Spivey, and Walker.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze_fkLP7U4c
  • zxczxczxczxczxc
    2 months ago 11/15/2020 3:37pm CST
    re: zxcvxzcv
    Forum Index
    zxcvxzcv wrote:
    False, Coevett and copycat. Said Aouita won Weltklasse in the Mile in 1985 in 3:46.92 over Bile, Spivey, and Walker.


    Lol, get real. Bile didn't even qualify for the final in LA the year before, and the year after this (86) was beaten by Ovett who had moved up to the 5000m. Aouita ducked Bile religiously from 87.

    You're seriously saying that Aouita beating Walker 8 years past his prime is a major victory? He also beat him in Zurich in 84 btw, as well as several other times I'm sure.
  • Souly
    registered
    2 months ago 11/21/2020 9:53pm CST
    re: zxczxczxczxczxc
    Forum Index
    zxczxczxczxczxc wrote:
    zxcvxzcv wrote:
    False, Coevett and copycat. Said Aouita won Weltklasse in the Mile in 1985 in 3:46.92 over Bile, Spivey, and Walker.


    Lol, get real. Bile didn't even qualify for the final in LA the year before, and the year after this (86) was beaten by Ovett who had moved up to the 5000m. Aouita ducked Bile religiously from 87.

    You're seriously saying that Aouita beating Walker 8 years past his prime is a major victory? He also beat him in Zurich in 84 btw, as well as several other times I'm sure.


    Aouita destroyed Bile in '87, winning in Oslo by over 2 secs in fast race (that should be major race, no?), but avoided him in '89 (I think in Brussels where they were scheduled to contest 1500m, Aouita skippin' to mile).
    However, during his prime (84-89) he lost only 4 races (only one 1500m), always beating Scott, Walker, Maree, Gonzalez, Abascal, Spivey, Bile, Ovett... But avoided Cram after Nice, until 800m clash in Seoul heats.
    Coe's six year (1979-84) peak saw him lose 9 races, 4 of these in '83 when he was sick.
    Both of them have very, very similar mental approach, both are conservative egoists and are not likable persons. As athletes they were just brilliant and I pick Coe in a tactical race, Aouita in fast one.
  • Coevett
    registered
    2 months ago 11/22/2020 4:33am CST
    re: Souly
    Forum Index

    Yes, you're right - he did beat Bile in Oslo in 87. Might have been closer if Bile had chased Aouita rather than seemingly settling for beating the rest.

    And note Aouita being forced to give his reason for dodging Cram in the mile at the start of the video - because 'Cram wasn't ready for him'. Lol.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZAh5hqQrjg
  • Souly
    registered
    2 months ago 11/23/2020 8:17pm CST
    re: Coevett
    Forum Index

    Dodging was almost everybody's game.
    Cram also did not want to run against Aouita in Nice in '87 and '88 and went on to race 800m both times (badly). I also know of some races that Coe rescheduled after hearing who was in the race (Zurich 800m in 1985, was not happy to contest Aouita in '84 over 1500m), but also Ovett. As far as I know, Steve never ran in Zurich (very strange as Zurich was top meet these days), but was regular in Brussels, except in '81 when Coe was in the race and broke Ovett's mile WR.
    Aouita even avoided Marcus O'Sullivan during the U.S. indoor season in '89 after hearing from meet director that guy ran 3:50 mile a year before. Aouita asked - Really? I've never heard of him.
    But some legends as John Walker and Steve Scott never avoided anyone. They just raced often and (mostly) fast.
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