Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Nurmi wrote:

same old wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. There is no such evidence that he was "the first middle-distance great" doper, and that he set "the pattern for other African dopers ".

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/06/23/629216/two-aces-on-a-collision-course

Often, the judgmental severity of desert Islam comes out in Aouita's remarks on competitors. "I think I am the only middle distance runner in the world who doesn't cheat," he says. "I don't ever save myself for the next race. I always give it all. On the other hand, if you see Cram run only 3:57 for the mile, one has to think something is fishy. I don't have that mentality. I always run strongly."

Aouita arrived with an eye-opening 3:32.54 for 1,500 in 1983. Since then he has demonstrated a prodigious range, from a best 800 of 1:44.38 to his 5,000 record. He may even go longer. "I have found a method which prepares me ideally for all distances from 800 to 10,000," he said not long ago. "It's a method nobody knows." His goals include a 3:45 mile, a 3:27 1,500, a 12:52 5,000 and who knows how much off the 10,000. And he says, "If I weren't flat-footed and didn't have my two annual bouts with Achilles tendinitis that force me to stop for a time, I would already have achieved incredible times."

Nurmi wrote:

same old wrote:

This is getting ridiculous. There is no such evidence that he was "the first middle-distance great" doper, and that he set "the pattern for other African dopers ".

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/06/23/629216/two-aces-on-a-collision-course

Often, the judgmental severity of desert Islam comes out in Aouita's remarks on competitors. "I think I am the only middle distance runner in the world who doesn't cheat," he says. "I don't ever save myself for the next race. I always give it all. On the other hand, if you see Cram run only 3:57 for the mile, one has to think something is fishy. I don't have that mentality. I always run strongly."

Aouita arrived with an eye-opening 3:32.54 for 1,500 in 1983. Since then he has demonstrated a prodigious range, from a best 800 of 1:44.38 to his 5,000 record. He may even go longer. "I have found a method which prepares me ideally for all distances from 800 to 10,000," he said not long ago. "It's a method nobody knows." His goals include a 3:45 mile, a 3:27 1,500, a 12:52 5,000 and who knows how much off the 10,000. And he says, "If I weren't flat-footed and didn't have my two annual bouts with Achilles tendinitis that force me to stop for a time, I would already have achieved incredible times."

Sarah Ulmer wrote:

Nurmi wrote:

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/06/23/629216/two-aces-on-a-collision-course

Often, the judgmental severity of desert Islam comes out in Aouita's remarks on competitors. "I think I am the only middle distance runner in the world who doesn't cheat," he says. "I don't ever save myself for the next race. I always give it all. On the other hand, if you see Cram run only 3:57 for the mile, one has to think something is fishy. I don't have that mentality. I always run strongly."

Aouita arrived with an eye-opening 3:32.54 for 1,500 in 1983. Since then he has demonstrated a prodigious range, from a best 800 of 1:44.38 to his 5,000 record. He may even go longer. "I have found a method which prepares me ideally for all distances from 800 to 10,000," he said not long ago. "It's a method nobody knows." His goals include a 3:45 mile, a 3:27 1,500, a 12:52 5,000 and who knows how much off the 10,000. And he says, "If I weren't flat-footed and didn't have my two annual bouts with Achilles tendinitis that force me to stop for a time, I would already have achieved incredible times."

Aouita saying he is the only middle distance who doesn't cheat!

Avoiding races against Coe and Cram would be considered "cheating" in his context.

80s fan wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Well I guess the OP didn't state which year? If we are talking about their respective peaks, or a year when both were close to their peaks, I refer you to my previous post regarding Zurich 84.

If we're talking about when Coe was unwell or recovering from injury, and losing to guys like Scott and Gonzalez such as 83 or 85, then obviously Aouita. But then why not Coe vs Aouita in 81? Too bad Aouita wasn't on the peds yet and was running 3:40 in b races, not good enough to even be Coe's pacemaker.

Coe beat Cram in 84, when Aoutia ducked both (and Ovett). Cram beat Aouita in 85. True Cram and Gonzalez beat Coe, but Coe was not at his best. Aouita never had injuries, and when he did take the slightest knock, such as 88 or 90, he was broken. The fact that Gonzalez beat Coe in the Mile race with Cram in 85 shows he was not at his best. He beat Gonzalez handily the next year. Coe had 3 weeks missed training, then raced Cram and Gonzalez almost immediately after only one 800m warm up race. Coe was in better form than Cram early in 85. Both would have likely gone under 3:46 if Coe was fit.

Yes true they both had long careers with peaks and troughs plus Aouita raced over a wide range of distances making comparisons difficult, but I still have to give the nod to Aouita - faster PRs over 1500m/mile plus a global championship medal over 800m suggests he had the speed and specialist endurance to deliver the goods over 1500m.

Aouita had a he very heavy leg injury in 1988 that would have felled most world class runners yet he still soldiered on and managed a bronze over 800m behind 2 of the all time great specialists at the distance - Cruz and Ereng. That performance still blows my mind to this day. But I agree with you in that Ialso think he was on drugs - I feel that Ben Johnson was scapegoat in 1988.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Coe and Ovett revolutionised middle distance running.

800m 1:43 to 1:41

1500m 3:32 to 3:29 yes Cram got their first but it was not Aouita

Mile 3:49 to 3:47. Again Cram pushed it again to 3:46 not Aouita.

They were the middle distance barrier breakers not Aouita.

Cram beat him in 83 championships and again in first sub 3:29 in 85

Coe best Cram in 84 his first this move Aouita even level.

Now move on to championships at middle distances and Aoutia supporters claim that when Cram beat him he hadn't peaked.

So surely this guy who is an all time great won a world championships or Olympic 1500m title. Naff all. Boo hoo he was injured.

Is he top dog the best one who would lead the pack if only he'd not hurt his paw. No the top dog is the top dog and the first the first man to retain the Olympic title over 1500m and helped revolutionise middle distance running is the top dog n this discussion.

Harsh Desert Truth wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Coe and Ovett revolutionised middle distance running.

800m 1:43 to 1:41

1500m 3:32 to 3:29 yes Cram got their first but it was not Aouita

Mile 3:49 to 3:47. Again Cram pushed it again to 3:46 not Aouita.

They were the middle distance barrier breakers not Aouita.

Cram beat him in 83 championships and again in first sub 3:29 in 85

Coe best Cram in 84 his first this move Aouita even level.

Now move on to championships at middle distances and Aoutia supporters claim that when Cram beat him he hadn't peaked.

So surely this guy who is an all time great won a world championships or Olympic 1500m title. Naff all. Boo hoo he was injured.

Is he top dog the best one who would lead the pack if only he'd not hurt his paw. No the top dog is the top dog and the first the first man to retain the Olympic title over 1500m and helped revolutionise middle distance running is the top dog n this discussion.

Yes, it's a good point. Aouita shaved fractions off of the WRs he broke, even the 5000m which was supposedly his best event. His 'special methods' were just Coe's training plus almost certainly peds, plus dancing around 800-5000m to avoid rivals, and trying to break the WR in every race to get the bonuses and establish the 'best range ever' legend.

Coe and Ovett should already have run under 3:29/3:46 let aone 3:30/3:47.

If Moorcroft had been paced in 82, he would have ran faster than 12:58, probably even put it out of sight of Aouita.

Aouita had a lot of luck, including lack of injuries until 88, which was probably helped by HGH, and yet he still managed to whine that he was held back by tendon problems.

Imagine if Cram had had 5 years injury free at his peak like Aouita did? He maybe had 5 weeks injury free in 1985 and was too fast for Aouita.

Aouita - right moment, right time, right peds, managed to avoid all his rivals throughout his career, and now talked about as one of the greatest ever.

If he was clean, or born 5 years later, we wouldn't even know who he was.

Coeuita wrote:

Harsh Desert Truth wrote:

Yes, it's a good point. Aouita shaved fractions off of the WRs he broke, even the 5000m which was supposedly his best event. His 'special methods' were just Coe's training plus almost certainly peds, plus dancing around 800-5000m to avoid rivals, and trying to break the WR in every race to get the bonuses and establish the 'best range ever' legend.

Coe and Ovett should already have run under 3:29/3:46 let aone 3:30/3:47.

If Moorcroft had been paced in 82, he would have ran faster than 12:58, probably even put it out of sight of Aouita.

Aouita had a lot of luck, including lack of injuries until 88, which was probably helped by HGH, and yet he still managed to whine that he was held back by tendon problems.

Imagine if Cram had had 5 years injury free at his peak like Aouita did? He maybe had 5 weeks injury free in 1985 and was too fast for Aouita.

Aouita - right moment, right time, right peds, managed to avoid all his rivals throughout his career, and now talked about as one of the greatest ever.

If he was clean, or born 5 years later, we wouldn't even know who he was.

There is an "obvious" reason why Aouita is not the IAAF Hall of Fame, even tough he meets the criteria.