Cram's defeat of Cruz in that 1985 race of 1:42.88 features a last 200m of roughly 25.7, not too shabby in a race that fast.
Cram's defeat of Cruz in that 1985 race of 1:42.88 features a last 200m of roughly 25.7, not too shabby in a race that fast.
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe vs. Said Aouita
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe vs. Steve Cram
Oh, well I take it you speak for everyone!
I said that Elliott was a 1:42 high man. Stating someone is a 1:42 man isn't very specific IMO. If he'd run that in 1980, then it would have been rounded up and recorded as 1:43.0. I was not trying to lessen Elliott's performance at all, but there is a big difference, when talking about '1:42' men, between the likes of Koskei or Kaki, and someone like Elliott, who ducked under by a few inches.
I can guarantee if Coe had run 1:41.93 in Florence in 81, under same circumstances of the official clock not working properly and the IAAF using the time shown on the Electronic cell, that there would still be many on here questioning as to whether he really did break the 1:42 barrier, due to the small margins! As it was, the time keepers got 1:41.6 and it's clear from video footage that it was way below 1:42.0.
I have never said said that Coe's performance in Florence in 81 was greater than Rudisha's in 2012. In terms of context, then of course Rudisha's is the better performance as it was run in an Olympic final after 2 days of rounds. Having said that, I believe both are historically important for the event. Coe's run at the time meant he was not only the only sub 1:43 athlete, but also the first sub 1:42. It was a Beamonesque improvement of 1.71 secs on the second fastest athlete ever at the time. There is also no doubt that he ran about 1.5 -2m extra , and the surface was not as fast as today's mondo tracks. Without running wide it would have been 1:41.5, and had it been run on the same surface as London 2012 Olympics, then it would have been close to 1:41.0. Considering it was run some 30 years before Rudisha, it shows that Coe would certainly have been more than competitive in today's era.
Rudisha, in comparison, only improved the previous WR by 0.1 secs. However, based on his overall record, Rudisha is the GOAT at 800m due to his double Olympic titles. That is not the same as stating that I believe Rudisha would beat everyone in history. I think, on their day, both Coe and Kipketer could beat Rudisha, as they had better turn of speed. If Rudisha isn't clear as they hit the last 200m, then he can be vulnerable.
Nonsense. Cram of 85 was a different beast to that of 83. Cram is on record as stating that his form in 83 and 84 over 1500 were similar. He actually lost a lot more training in the 6 months build up to the World Champs in 83, compared to the same period prior to LA in 84. The difference was that in Helsinki he was in a slow tactical race and had been tipped off that Aouita was going to make a move 500m from home. The LA final was almost 10 secs faster, 'a true miler's race' as Scott called it. Cram didn't have the speed endurance to get past Coe, and certainly couldn't match his speed at the end. Indeed, Cram's last 200m in Helsinki, 26.0, and last 100m, 13.3, were both considerably slower than Coe's closing splits (25.7/12.6) in a much faster overall race in LA. And that was his 7th race in 9 days. Cram of 83 would have been no closer to Coe at the end in LA than he was.
Now, Cram of 85 was a different beast, better than he had been in 83. In that shape, it would have been a close race against Coe, but you have to remember the context of each race when making a comparison. Cram's was a 1 off circuit race on a nice Scandinavian summer's evening, with a set up rabbit, who gave him pretty efficient pace over the first 2 laps; Cram ran 440's of 57.2 and 57.3. In LA, in the heat and some smog, Coe ran his race after 6 previous runs in close succession. Put Cram into a similar series of races in his 85 form, there is no guarantee he would have performed the same way.
Coe was not in "fine form" as you suggest in 85, and it is that comment more than any other you made, that shows some lack of understanding. He was in decent shape, but not as good as anytime from 79-81, or 84 or 86.
He'd stated in an interview in late 84 that 85 was going to be 'a quiet' and 'transitional' year, where he was going to try out the 5000m, and that he needed to take it easy after the heavy workload of getting ready for LA off a limited background in 84. He also said that he'd made some promises to some big meet directors, who were also friends, like Hansen in Oslo and Brugger in Zurich, that had helped him in 84, that he would run in their meets to show his thanks for their support.
He also felt he had nothing to prove over 1500m. He ran a solo 1:44.0 in May, which was not unusual for Coe at that time of year, beat Cram over 800m in early June, then picked up an injury which kept him from training for almost a month at a crucial stage. He also had a return of a back problem which he'd had in 1980, and which was a constant for the rest of the 85 season. He actually pulled out of a couple of late season races as he was warming up. When he faced Cram in Oslo, he was far from his best.
To offer the fact that he ran the 800m faster in 85 than he did in 84 as some sort of evidence that he therefore must have been in greater shape, is either an effort to be provocative or foolish.
Coe ran 1:43.38 for 800m at 32 in 1989. Which was faster than he ran the distance in 1980, 84 or 86. Does that mean he was a better athlete in 89 than those years? No, of course not.
In 85, as in 89, he got into very fast races, where he was able to chase Cruz in the former, and was out on his own in the latter.
The 1:43.07 he ran in 85 represents the very fastest he could probably run that year.
In the Olympic final in 84, in his 4th race in 4 days, he ran 1:43.63 in a final where he ran c. 10m extra wide. That in itself brings his ability that day, in a paced effort in a circuit race, down to 1:42.3. And that is without taking into consideration the lack of drafting he got and the clash of elbows with Earl Jones in the home straight. He was certainly in 1:42 flat shape that day.
Likewise in 86, he ran 1:44.5 in the European final, running 11m wide and with a closing effort of 24.8 (and the last bend was 3m wide!) and 12.4. That run was equivalent to a 1:43.2 in a circuit race with a 24.5 last 200m! That is a quantum leap better than the form he showed in 85.
In 85 Coe ran 3:32.13 and 3:49.22 for the 1500 and mile respectively, faster than he ran in 1980 or 84. Yet from the closing splits in his best races in those years, it is clear to anyone with an ability to analyse, that he was a far better athlete in both those years.
In 86 he ran the 1500 over 2 secs faster than he did in 81. Does that mean he was a 2 sec better athlete in 86? No, of course not. Circumstances dictated that in 81 he had crap pacing, whereas in 86 it was more decent.
Both Cruz and Coe in their peak 84 form, would have beaten Cram over 800m in the form he showed in 85. When Cram beat Cruz in Zurich 85, the Brazilian himself was coming back from injury problems. Cram's last 200m in a 1 off circuit race (1:42.88) at the height of his powers in Zurich 85, was 25.8.
Cruz ran a 25.1 in the LA final in a similar final time of 1:43.00. And that was his 4th race in 4 days, including a 1:44 and another 1:43, in far hotter conditions.
Oh really!
Well, when he ran his 3:29 in Rieti in 86, a year when, if one follows your reasoning was not a good one, as he didn't break 1:44 for 800m!, his last 400m was 55.2. Considering the pacer, Chesire, went in front just before the bell, and then slowed down, upsetting Coe's rhythm and forcing him to then run wide round Chesire on the bend, incurring a 1 - 1.5m extra run, then Coe's 55.2 would have been sub 55.0 if he hadn't been impeded. Indeed, Coe stated in his biography that the slowing down and running round the pacer, cost him the WR and as much as 0.5 secs.
So, if he could run a final lap of 55.2 in a 3:29 off crap pacing (54.0, 58.0 first 2 laps), having been impeded at the bell and forced to swerve round another athlete, then he could certainly have run at least a last 400 of 54 high in a 3:29 low race. And this was when he was a 1:44 800m man! If he'd had the same set up in 81 when in 1:41 mid shape, then it would have been faster.
When he ran his 3:47.3 mile WR in 81, his last 400m was 55.1. He said in the post race interview that he was holding back something for the last 100m (13.1, which is 52.4 pace for 400), and that had he gone "all out" at the bell, he would have run 3:46.5. That would have entailed a last 400m of 54.3. And again, the pace distribution in that race was dreadful- 55.3, then 58.0.
So there are 2 examples of where he was more than capable of running a last 400m in under 55.0 in a 3:29 or 3:46.
The 80s Channel wrote:
Coe and Cruz both ran faster than they did at the '84 Games. Don't worry, Deano will have a lorry-load of excuses.
Cram vs Cruz over 800m in 1985 and vs Coe in the mile (Coe in fine form breaks 3:50):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tS_yfiW5x8More excuses from Deano to come.
If you really don't know the difference between a paced one off circuit race in Koln when the rabbit goes through the bell in sub 49, with Cruz in 49 low, and an Olympic final in heat and smog, in which both athletes ran most of the race wide and went through in 51 low, then I'm not going to waste my time telling you. They are not excuses, they are just fundamental and obvious components of running 800m in widely different contexts.
Cruz was in considerably better form in LA running a 1:43.00 after rounds, with a last 200m of 25.1, than when running a one off 1:42.54 with a last 200m of 27.1.
Likewise for Coe. In that 85 race he went through 600m in 1:15.7 and finished with a 27.3.
In 79 he went through 600 faster, 1:15.4 and finished faster, 26.9.
Coe certainly had considerably faster in the tank in 1981 in both the 1500m and mile, no question whatsoever, considering the ease with which he ran those times. It's not clear that Cram in his 1:42.88 was not superior to Cruz and Coe at any time. Recall that Cram was running on the outside of lane one for much of the race, including the first two turns. I'm not going to look again at the race, but we're talking about a pretty easy victory over Cruz in 25.7 in a sub 1:43 race. Make no mistake that Cruz was in very good shape when Cram beat him. These are other times Cruz ran during that seven day period in 1985:
32 1:42.49 Joaquim Cruz BRA 12.03.63 1r1 Koblenz 28.08.1985
39 1:42.54 Joaquim Cruz BRA 12.03.63 1 Köln 25.08.1985
80 1:42.88 Steve Cram GBR 14.10.60 1rA Zürich 21.08.1985
95 1:42.98 Joaquim Cruz BRA 12.03.63 1r1 Berlin 23.08.1985
101 1:43.00 Joaquim Cruz BRA 12.03.63 1 Los Angeles 06.08.1984
111 1:43.07 Sebastian Coe GBR 29.09.56 2 Köln 25.08.1985
144 1:43.19 Steve Cram GBR 14.10.60 1 Rieti 07.09.1986
150 1:43.22 Steve Cram GBR 14.10.60 1 Edinburgh 31.07.1986
154 1:43.23 Joaquim Cruz BRA 12.03.63 2rA Zürich 21.08.1985
Cruz lost to Cram in 1:43.23 on August 21, 1985. He then ran 1:42.98 two days later on August 23. Another two days later he ran 1:42.54. Three days after that he ran 1:42.49. He won all of those races, except the one against Cram. He beat Coe in the Koeln race where Coe ran 1:43.07. That race was the third fastest race of Coe's entire career! He ran his 1:41.73 world record in 1981, a 1:42.33 wr in 1979, and the 1:43 in 1985. Cram may never have been able to live with Coe's acceleration the last 100m in Los Angeles. But 1985 Cram, who also ran a windy 2:12.88 1k on August 9, 1985, twelve days prior to the Cruz match, was very close to 1981 Coe form, only somewhat differently structured, favoring the long drive and never working the top speed in training the way that Coe did. Cram had already run the 1500m world record on July 16, 1985 and the mile world record on July 27, 1985. He may, in other words, have actually been a little past his peak on August 21, 1985 in the Cruz match.
xcvzxvczvxc wrote:
Cram had already run the 1500m world record on July 16, 1985 and the mile world record on July 27, 1985. He may, in other words, have actually been a little past his peak on August 21, 1985 in the Cruz match.
I think he's said that he wished that season had never ended. He seemed to be getting better with every race.
Having said that, he lost to Ovett in a mile road race at the end of the season.
It's funny that in his greatest season he started it by getting beat by Coe, and ended by getting beat by Ovett. I think they were the only two to beat him that season, although I think he pulled out in the middle of one race before his 1500m WR because he felt his calves flaring up again.
I agree that Cruz was in very good form in 85, but as your post and the list you produce show, Cruz was getting faster and better with every race after Zurich. In fact, I think Coleman alluded to that in the intro to the Koln race against Coe.
Prior to that race Cruz's fastest was a 1:45.4 narrowly beating Braun in Lausanne, and he had only held off McKean by 0.3 in a 1:47 in London. When he arrived in Europe and ran his first race on circuit in Lausanne, he hadn't competed for 6 weeks, and had missed almost a month of training in June. He wasn't in the same form at any point in 85 as he had been in LA.
Cram's 1:42.88 included about 2m extra on 2nd bend (200-300m), no wide running on 3rd and about 1.5m on last. He also benefited from a good extra 200m of drafting from bell to 600m.
If we give him an extra 4m, which is being generous, then we get 1:42.37 with a last 200m of 25.5 (based on actual 200m of 25.78)
Cruz in LA ran approx 7m extra on bends, including 2.5m on last bend, included in his 25.17 last 200m, in a 1:43.00.
That works out as equivalent to a 1:42.11 with a last 200m of 24.9!
Coe in LA ran 10m extra in his 1:43.63, including 3.25m (in lane 2) on last bend, and ran a 25.68 last 200m.
That equates to a 1:42.35 with a last 200m of 25.27. And that doesn't take into consideration the 2 clashes with Jones's elbows in the home straight. That probably cost him 0.2sec.
As much as Championship running is all about using the rounds to reach some sort of peak come the final, I can't help but think that had Cruz and Coe had an extra day off between the Olympic semi and final, they could possibly have been in slightly better form in the final. Certainly I think the 4 races in 4 days in one of the greatest in depth Championship 800m in history, is a consideration when looking at Cruz's form viz a viz Cram in 85.
Cram was undoubtedly the best middle distance runner (800/1500) in 85, and was better than Cruz in Zurich and deserved to win, but the facts clearly show that Cruz was not in his best form in that race, and would certainly have run much better in his LA or post LA circuit form from 84.
I agree that Cram was probably at his 85 season best in Oslo or in early August when he ran the 2:12 1000m.
Coevett wrote:
xcvzxvczvxc wrote:
Cram had already run the 1500m world record on July 16, 1985 and the mile world record on July 27, 1985. He may, in other words, have actually been a little past his peak on August 21, 1985 in the Cruz match.
I think he's said that he wished that season had never ended. He seemed to be getting better with every race.
Having said that, he lost to Ovett in a mile road race at the end of the season.
It's funny that in his greatest season he started it by getting beat by Coe, and ended by getting beat by Ovett. I think they were the only two to beat him that season, although I think he pulled out in the middle of one race before his 1500m WR because he felt his calves flaring up again.
He was beaten over 800m by McKean too in 85; early - mid season.
Cram also ran 25 flat or 24.9 last 200m in his 1:43.22 800m in 1986 in the Commonwealth Final against Elliott. Elliott was 1:18.15 at 600m, and Cram just back at 1:18.2-1:18.3.
Those numbers seem cherry-picked to put Coe .02 ahead of a corrected Cram. They don't add up.
Coe did run close to the line of lane 2 a good deal of the race, sometimes inside. Since they run in lanes the first turn, the maximum from running square in lane 2 would be estimated at 6.8m per lap or 10.2m total for three turns. He's not always in lane 2 at .3m from the line. Sometimes he's in the outer part of lane 1. It looks more like 9m.
Cram was outside a bit less but usually on the outside of lane 1, not far, in other words, from where Coe was.
Cram's was intrinsically better. He was on the outside of lane 1 for turns 2 and 4, meaning somewhat close to 3m extra on each turn, closer to 6m total certainly than 4m. He is not drafting on those turns. 1:42.11 if 6m extra.
Pretty hard to say that was not really the same Cruz at the beginning and end of the very same week. Cruz's best segments of racing seemed to come during periods of a lot of races, every day or two. LA conditions were not easy, I'll definitely give you that. It would be very interesting to see what a 1981 Coe at his peak could have done with El G and his pacers--not beaten El G, but run very fast, I am sure.
I'm not sure Rudisha ranks above Mal Whitfield, who also won 2 OG in the 800, plus a gold in the 4 x 400.
Beanous wrote:
I'm not sure Rudisha ranks above Mal Whitfield, who also won 2 OG in the 800, plus a gold in the 4 x 400.
I'll take Ramzi's double gold performance at Helsinki in 05 as one of the top performances of all time. ?The 1500 that he won was loaded with talent.
I like Moroccan Runners wrote:
Beanous wrote:
I'm not sure Rudisha ranks above Mal Whitfield, who also won 2 OG in the 800, plus a gold in the 4 x 400.
I'll take Ramzi's double gold performance at Helsinki in 05 as one of the top performances of all time. ?The 1500 that he won was loaded with talent.
Loaded with EPO I thinkyou mean.
Beanous wrote:
I'm not sure Rudisha ranks above Mal Whitfield, who also won 2 OG in the 800, plus a gold in the 4 x 400.
Yeah, always seems that when discussing 800m GOATS, people seem to think the event began with Peter Snell.
What about Douglas Lowe, gold medalist in 1924 and 1928? Check out his sprint finish in the 1928 final. He finished over a second clear (the biggest winning margin I believe in history) in new WR, despite being in second as they entered the home straight. He retired after Amsterdam but he was only 26 so might have gone on to the 1932 Games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4iIka_QQ24Seems he's been largely forgotten, which is his own fault as he was apparently going to be featured prominantly in the film Chariots of Fire, but he refused the maker's permission to include him. He was also British record holder in the 440 yards, the world record holder at 660 yards (an official event back then) and a 1500 pb of 3:57 which was very decent back then.
Tommy Hampson, who won in 1932, might not be in Goat contention, but his achievement was also impressive. He only started running seriously in his finaly year at university, and yet won Olympic Gold and became the first man under 1:50 within four years.
After 1984 Cruz was pretty much always injured as well.
zxvczcxvvxzc wrote:
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe v. Said Aouita
Trackbot! Compare Sebastian Coe v. Steve Cram
Sadly Trackbot is no longer with us RIP,
Anyhow just check the archives.
TheyR Dirtee wrote:
No one in Europe or Japan or other places could get away with this. Only certain third world countries are allowed this type of leeway. What is the politics behind this?
https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/sports/article/2001273442/inside-the-doping-underworld
"As a result, many athletes do not get tested during training unless they are signed to some elite camps. And even then, this has done little to curb the vice, giving cartels a free hand to distribute and administer performance-enhancing drugs.
"Sports entirely is a cartel," Moses Kiptanui, a respected former athlete and ex-3,000 metres steeplechase record-holder tells Saturday Standard."
☞I always thought that the elite camps were where the Rosas dished out the dope.
Some more good stuff in this:
"Doctors try to give the dosage so athletes benefit in training, but it's out of their system before they race. There's almost no random testing of athletes in Kenya during training.
So lucrative is the desire that athletes, their agents and managers, too, have devised ways to avoid being tested or testing positive for these banned substances. One way, as we found out, is only participating in races where the prize and appearance money is less than $5,000. "
"The other way is competing in races held in countries like China where testing for banned substances is rarely done."
"If they insisted on drawing blood during the tests, most of the athletes who dope would be found. Beating a urine sample test is very easy," said an athlete currently facing a ban after testing positive to a banned substance.
"The alcohol helps to prevent your liver from being roasted because the drugs are too strong. It also makes the blood light which increases the amount of water in your urine so during the test it is difficult to detect the drugs," said the athlete.
But for those who have money and can access a good doctor especially in Eldoret, four units of their blood is withdrawn, centrifuged and stored 8-12 weeks before a race. This according to a doctor who does this complicated procedure enables the body to re-establish red blood cells to levels that existed before withdrawal. The blood is then reintroduced to the body a month to the race."
☞sounds reassuring.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
After 1984 Cruz was pretty much always injured as well.
Was he clean though?
zxcvzxcvzvxc wrote:
Those numbers seem cherry-picked to put Coe .02 ahead of a corrected Cram. They don't add up.
Coe did run close to the line of lane 2 a good deal of the race, sometimes inside. Since they run in lanes the first turn, the maximum from running square in lane 2 would be estimated at 6.8m per lap or 10.2m total for three turns. He's not always in lane 2 at .3m from the line. Sometimes he's in the outer part of lane 1. It looks more like 9m.
Cram was outside a bit less but usually on the outside of lane 1, not far, in other words, from where Coe was.
Cram's was intrinsically better. He was on the outside of lane 1 for turns 2 and 4, meaning somewhat close to 3m extra on each turn, closer to 6m total certainly than 4m. He is not drafting on those turns. 1:42.11 if 6m extra.
You don't know what you're talking about.
If you run an entire bend on the line between lanes 1 and 2, that is 2.91m extra. If Cram runs in the outside of lane 1 (which is what you have written), and he was a good 30cm inside of the line, that cannot be 3m extra per turn. He would have to run, on average, an entire bend with both feet in lane 2, albeit just over the line, to run 3m per turn. He ran 4m extra in Zurich 85, and was not near the line between 1 and 2.
Coe was often in lane 2 on the bends in the LA race. You have to work out an aggregate over the duration of the entire bend.
Running 3 bends 'squarely in lane 2', by which I presume you mean the middle of the lane, is 4.8m extra per bend. That's 14.42m extra over 3 bends, not 10.2m!
The radius is 36.8 and is taken 30cm from inside of lane 1. Each lane is 1.22m wide. Therefore the radius of running in middle of lane 2 is 0.92m (line with lane 2) + 0.61m (from line to middle of lane 2) = 1.53.m, or a radius of 38.33m.
Coe only needs to have run , on average, 14cm wide of the line between 1 and 2, to have run an extra 10m.
Looking at the race he is always either on the line or just outside it. It was nearer to 10m extra than 9m.