Was Verzbicas the greatest HSer of all time?

swerve wrote:

I go with Lukas. 8:29 is insane, and 3:59 in a storm is on that level. Incredible XC performances,.

Um, ever heard of German Fernandez?

LV's 8:29 was indeed "insane". But.....it was against international field with his own pacer, while German ran 8:37 (converted 3200) solo.......**** a few hours after running a 4:01 mile! ***** (converted 1600). Sorry, but that double tops a single 8:29 or 3:59 in my book. On the days LV ran his 8:29 or his 3:59, I don't think he could have pulled off the German solo double.

As fas as X-C, German once beat the State of CA (yes, the whole freaking state) by 49 seconds. That's as close as anyone in any division came to his time that day (CA state meet). And German was 17 when he ran all of the above times. (barely 17 for the X-C ).

But LV is right there with him.

Of course Jim Ryun was better than both.

Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:

...

As fas as X-C, German once beat the State of CA (yes, the whole freaking state) by 49 seconds. That's as close as anyone in any division came to his time that day (CA state meet).

...

That ranks as one of the best HS running performances ever. It's a shame it didn't happen on a track where comparisons are easier. A while back I estimated that it equates with running sub 13:40 at Detweiller, maybe by a LOT. Virgin's record is 13:50.6 .

Sorry Craig but: German CA State XC win >> Virgin IL State XC win

verzbicas was an age cheat.

So was cheserek.

So was lomong.

Liars all.

Stop trying to pretend.

Bible ghhh wrote:

Nope. Not the GOAT. He is the 2 mile record holder — but I think Webb & GF would beat him 8/10 times in ahead to head 2 M. Any style.

German Fernandez? Of all the runners mentioned, he is the only one who absolutely does not belong in this convo at all.

Ryun and Lindgren were international class in HS (albeit in an very weak point of running) with a 3:55 and 8:40(i) respectively over 40 years ago. Ritz had is World Jr. XC bronze and an incredibly dominating FL win. Webb has his 3:53 HS record. Verzbicas has 14:06, 8:29, 3:59, 2xFLN and 1xNXN championship wins.

Fernandez in HS was, in absolutely every relevant way, inferior to Verzbicas. His 2-mile time is slower than Verzbicas. His 3200m time is slower than Verzbicas' 2-mile time. His 1600m time was slower than Verzbicas' 1-mile time. He failed to win FL. The fact that he ran 8:34 and 4:00 within hours of each other is a worthless addition. Who the Hell becomes the GOAT by running SLOWER than the guys he's up against?

Tyrone ReXXXing wrote:

As fas as X-C, German once beat the State of CA (yes, the whole freaking state) by 49 seconds. That's as close as anyone in any division came to his time that day (CA state meet). And German was 17 when he ran all of the above times. (barely 17 for the X-C ).

This doesn't even qualify as an accomplishment in this discussion. German Fernandez beat the State of CA by 49 seconds? Well, when it came time for him to compare to all the other states out there, he blew it at FLN. All that shows is that the Californians couldn't quite perform (even on their home turf of Balboa).

In contrast, Ritz beat the USA (yes, the whole freaking country) by 20 seconds. And the first runner up happened to be Sub-4 Miler Webb.

Age is also irrelevant in this discussion. If you really care about age that much, then may as well give the GOAT awards to the random pre-teen girls who pop up once every few years and throw down some amazing times before stagnating and disappearing.

allman brothers wrote:

he's a conservative, instagram with Milo and Ben Shapiro

Hate to break it to you but Milo and Ben Shapiro are not conservatives.

Neither is LV. He's an immigrant-hating immigrant. Maybe he can send himself back to where he came from.

Jim Ryun, made Olympics, set some HS records that stood for a long time.

Craig Virgin

Gerry Lindgren

Did they run a last 440 in around 50? It sure looked.like it.

True--and Webb was paced by El G and company whereas Ryan often had to pace his races from the gun. No doubt cinder is slower than the all-weather tracks they have today and the shoes were also inferior back then.

Depth really wasn't an issue, as they were both breaking American records while in high school. Both broke World Records their first year out of high school. They were a phenomenon that won't be equaled. Deal with it.

And they both ran and helped usher in a very rare short-lived era when Americans were both Olympic Gold Medalists and World Record Holders in distance.

Ryun's 3:55 was on a brand new Grass-Tex asphalt-composite track in San Diego. It was too hard with no bounce. It was a prototype of what was to come. A "work-in-progress" if you will. Ryun also ran a 4:11 qualifying heat race the day before his 3:55.

However, I think Ryun's best race in high school was actually the year before, when Timmons was still coaching him. At the Olympic Trials in New Jersey in 1964, Ryun ran 3:39.0 for 1500m on a very torn-up cinder track. Look at the photos - that track looks slooooow. That's equivalent to a 3:56 mile. No way is that a worse performance than Webb's 3:53 on U of O's perfect track 37 years later.

And don't forget Gerry Lindgren ran a 13:44.0 5000m over fifty years ago on a clay track in Compton running side-by-side with several World Record Holders. The WR at the time was 13:35. To this day, 53 years later, no high-schooler has run a better 5000m. The only faster time in HS, Rupp's 13:37.9 on a gorgeous European track surface, does not better Lindgren's mark imo.

GBN XC wrote:

popeye doyle wrote:

It’s Ryun and it’s not even close.

Because of what? A 3:55 mile time that's slower than Webb's? A lack of accomplishment at any other distance race in high school? Beating out international competition in an period where there was absolutely no monetary incentive in the sport, and even the most talented athletes rarely continued past college? Geez, I may not have been around when Ryun ran, but some of the people on these boards act like the competition in the 1960s was somehow equivalent to the competition now. If Ryun is the best HS distance runner based on being able to beat the shallow talent pool in 1964, then you may as well admit that Alistair Brownlee is as dominant and talented an endurance athlete as Bekele.

Huh? Peter Snell? Keino? Burleson? Whetton? Jazy? Odlozil? Davies? Norpoth? That's not diverse or deep? If you see those facts and still claim a "shallow talent pool", then you are certainly not a student of the sport or are just blinded by the fact that your mind is apparently already made up. I'd assume the latter without even blowing blinking an eye, and question why I'm even bothering with this post at all. Incidentally, that smattering of names was only 1964. Picture a high school JUNIOR making the Olympic Team in the men's 1500m, barely losing to a stud ex duck, 2-3 years past his collegiate graduation (Burleson) and the WR holder for the indoor mile (o'hara). Ryun's 3:55 on CINDERS in crappy adidas spikes stood for over 30 years. THIRTY-SIX to be exact. He's still the only HS athlete to have broken 4 more than 3 times.

There were no HS national championships in xc or track in those days, so comparing footlocker, nxn, etc is ludicrous. Any meets post HS season were with the big boys. Ryun rarely ran anything different than a mile outside of dual meets in HS, and believe he was a 3x large school state xc champion. 5k was not ever run in HS competition. Post HS season meets were the only way to do that. To claim anyone but Ryun as the greatest HS runner of all time would be ridiculous.

Oh yes, great runners like Snell, Whetton, and Norpoth. Incidentally, they are ALL benefits of that same shallow talent pool. For some reason, you guys seem to think that Peter Snell is incredible because he was a world class runner in the 1960s. Back then, no one had incentive to actually run. What part of AMATEUR athletes do you not understand?

Running was a recreational sport. You did it in high school and college, and if you had the monetary means to continue, you could keep at it for a few years. Contrast that with now. It is now a method for many individuals to make a living. East Africans in particularly are often able to RETIRE based on the earnings from a few races. Do you really think monetary incentive doesn't bring out greater competition?

Taking a page from the Ventolin book, you are a MORON if you think the depth was even passable back then. Runners could NOT support themselves by running. This means that unless they were very well off or were willing to temporarily sacrifice their careers, they could NOT fully dedicate themselves to training. This would eliminate a massive portion of potential runners. Nearly all of East Africa in fact. No matter how good they were at running, they completely lacked the economic means to go and compete on the World Stage. Even in present day, most potential African runners are economically barred from competing at a high level, but at the very least, agents will often go and find a portion of these talented runners and bring them to the big meets.

Moreover, how long you were able to train at a high level was completely dependent on how long you were willing to compromise your career. Consequently, most runners only had a few years at their peak. Just look at your favorite guy, Peter Snell. His peak lasted ~5 years, and he completely retired right around 27. Jim Ryun was similar. He performed at a high level for about ~7 years and that was it. Contrast that with guys like Gebrselassie, Lagat, Willis, Farah, etc. They go around setting PRs in their 30s, following careers lasting over a decade. The talent pool is MUCH deeper when talented runners stay around and compete at a high level for 10+ years.

Ryun also did not run a 3:55 on cinders, which goes to show just how much YOU know about the sport. How this information was even spread to this extent is astounding.

yesstiles wrote:

Depth really wasn't an issue, as they were both breaking American records while in high school. Both broke World Records their first year out of high school. They were a phenomenon that won't be equaled. Deal with it.

And they both ran and helped usher in a very rare short-lived era when Americans were both Olympic Gold Medalists and World Record Holders in distance.

It's like you people don't understand what depth actually is. The fact that they were breaking American records in HS is BECAUSE of pitiful depth.

Do you know WHY we had an Era when Americans were both Olympic Gold Medalists and World Record Holders in the distance? Because it was a rich man's sport back then. Nobody could be paid to run (they'd be banned by the AAU otherwise). Participation beyond high school and college was largely limited to people in the developed world who had no difficulties making ends meet. Do you know what other sport we have both Olympic Gold Medalists and World Record Holders in? Swimming. Do you know why? Because participation is limited to people in the developed world who have access to clean swimming facilities.

When you've set up a system where a huge portion of potential talent is unmotivated to participate, you end up with shallow talent pools. It's much easier for high schoolers to compete on a world stage when:

1) The developing world is largely economically incapable of participating.

2) Within the developed world, your post-high school and post-collegiate competitors have to juggle a career with their training.

'60s, not 60's.

'80s, not 80's.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe

Finally, you are a three time US Olympic team member and a two time Olympian [you did not compete in Moscow.

The definition of Olympian is "a competitor in the Olympic Games." You competed in two Olympics.

VIRGIN CORRECTIONS wrote:

'60s, not 60's.

'80s, not 80's.

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe

Finally, you are a three time US Olympic team member and a two time Olympian [you did not compete in Moscow.

The definition of Olympian is "a competitor in the Olympic Games." You competed in two Olympics.

No, he's definitely still a 3x Olympian.

thegreatest? wrote:

Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.

Those were some pretty big wins.

Sammy Wanjiru

I don’t know of anyone else who was in high school and ran under 13:15 for the 5k. He was an awesome cross country runner in high school (in Japan).

Soon after graduating from high school, he set the world jr 10k record (faster than Rupp’s pb) and then set the world half marathon record and a couple of years later, won the Olympic marathon in record time. Unfortunately, he died young but there’s no denying his talent at a young age.

If anything the "shallow talent pool" argument HELPS the case for Ryun. He had to essentially solo his first sub-4 and, I would imagine, nearly every other HS race he ran in Kansas. No one to pace him, no one to draft off of, and most importantly no close competition to up his game even further. LV's 8:29 outdoors was a tow-along job in a pro race and for 8:40i he was pushed the whole way by Cheserek (who had also run a 4:08 DMR leg the night before IIRC).

Gear & tracks: Ryun was at a huge disadvantage here compared to modern HSers. Even the 3:55 was on a slow (albeit not cinders) track.

Methods & nutrition: Please.

And as far as 3 x #1 at FLN/NXN go, these are ultimately exhibition races, not true national championships. Some kids train to peak for them, others place more emphasis on their state HS meets. LV was quite famously NOT into the HS team scene and thus could single-mindedly focus on these races (and similar ones like New Balance indoors). So the placings, while still certainly impressive, don't carry as much weight with me.

Ryun was a trailblazer. Webb re-blazed a trail that had gotten grown over. Verzbicas did neither.

How about Sammy wrote:

thegreatest? wrote:

Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.

Those were some pretty big wins.

Sammy Wanjiru

I don’t know of anyone else who was in high school and ran under 13:15 for the 5k. He was an awesome cross country runner in high school (in Japan).

Soon after graduating from high school, he set the world jr 10k record (faster than Rupp’s pb) and then set the world half marathon record and a couple of years later, won the Olympic marathon in record time. Unfortunately, he died young but there’s no denying his talent at a young age.

lol this "teenager" was in his mid-20s and loaded with that sweet Kenyan EPO.