Was Verzbicas the greatest HSer of all time?

High School Running Distance

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  • Heartland runner
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 1:41pm CDT
    re: Slopenguinrunner
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    Slopenguinrunner wrote:

    GBN XC wrote:

    Because of what? A 3:55 mile time that's slower than Webb's? A lack of accomplishment at any other distance race in high school? Beating out international competition in an period where there was absolutely no monetary incentive in the sport, and even the most talented athletes rarely continued past college? Geez, I may not have been around when Ryun ran, but some of the people on these boards act like the competition in the 1960s was somehow equivalent to the competition now. If Ryun is the best HS distance runner based on being able to beat the shallow talent pool in 1964, then you may as well admit that Alistair Brownlee is as dominant and talented an endurance athlete as Bekele.


    Off the top of my head, the international talent back then was still at least the equivalent of a NCAA championship meet today. Lucas was a mid pack college runner as a freshman and couldn’t make it out of one season of XC. So don’t discount what Ryun went against. Lucas quickly fell short once competition got tougher than high school boys.


    LV had an incredible senior year of track (3:59, 8:29 & many of the performances mentioned above) and then continued competing through the summer to become a junior triathlon world champion. This has been discussed on the boards before and the consensus was that he probably shouldn't have been competing at all that fall and Oregon could have handled him a lot more responsibly as a developing talent. Having recently tasted success in the tri, falling short of his previous dominant performances in his first races and being immature led to his departure. Had he stuck around & been trained appropriately there is no way you can say he wouldn't have been near or at the front of the NCAA pack simply based on his HS times. Nevertheless, post-HS times have no impact on whether he was the best HS runner. Also, to the other poster +1 for the Brownlee reference. Haha.
  • Heartland runner
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 1:46pm CDT
    re: Flagpole
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    Flagpole wrote:

    Given the rules, Verzbicas was the best, but he was older than most high schoolers as a senior (19). Makes a big difference. Lots of college freshman are able to do what he did as a HS senior.


    LV was born January 6, 1993. That made him 18 during his senior track season (2011).
  • westsouthrunner
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 1:52pm CDT
    re: Phantasy Star
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    Phantasy Star wrote:

    LV was severely over-aged in high school. When the public caught wind the "welllll I'm only ONE year ahead, I promise!" story was concocted. In actuality he was 22-ish as a high school senior. This was the peak of his career and he found himself absolutely crushed in the NCAA.

    Even with his age-cheat boost he was not even close to the best high schooler ever. No 800 credentials whatsoever is a huge hit. Ritz's bronze at world junior XC (lost only to two EPO-ed age-cheats) is vastly superior to anything LV accomplished. Webb was better as well, with his massive 800-5000 range.


    Alleged Certainty fallacy
  • westsouthrunner
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 1:53pm CDT
    re: Also Facts
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    Also Facts wrote:

    DiscoGary wrote:

    Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.


    He was also OLDER as a HS junior than Fernandez was as a senior. And his 2-mile record was in a pro race with the benefit of running behind faster folks.


    If youre going to use the pro race as a bad thing for Verzbicas shouldn't you do the same for ryun?
  • Also Facts
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 2:00pm CDT
    re: westsouthrunner
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    westsouthrunner wrote:

    Also Facts wrote:

    DiscoGary wrote:

    Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.


    He was also OLDER as a HS junior than Fernandez was as a senior. And his 2-mile record was in a pro race with the benefit of running behind faster folks.


    If youre going to use the pro race as a bad thing for Verzbicas shouldn't you do the same for ryun?


    I was not commenting on Ryun. I was addressing the LV v GF 2-mile comparison.

    But regarding Ryun, if Ryun was seriously competing for the win that is a whole different thing from lagging behind the real race and simply using pro runners to pull you to a faster time.

    ///

    Don't get me wrong - I agree that LV was a phenomenal HS runner. Just trying to keep any comparisons apples to apples to the extent possible.
  • historian
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 2:05pm CDT
    re: Arguing Princes
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    Arguing Princes wrote:

    Les wrote:

    He didn't just beat "international competition", he beat Peter Snell, the Olympic champion and mile world record holder, who was 26, still in his prime. He beat the best miler of his day. You can't blame Ryun for who DIDN'T line up against him. If the depth then wasn't what it is today, that was not his fault.


    This ^ is ALWAYS a totally lame argument. It has nothing to do with "blame" or "fault". Please try to get away from such nonsense.

    The question is how significant his achievements were. And it is entirely relevant to point to the quality of the competition if you are going to make a case based on his results in competition.


    Regardless, Ryan's achievements are still beyond anything Lukas did. Period.
  • Predictor
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 2:06pm CDT
    re: Also Facts
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    I am voting for Ryun. I waited for everyone to do the research and provide the data. Ryun's accomplishments seem the best and I believe that he would be the current American record holder in the 800 and 1500 if he was born 22 years ago.
  • DiscoGary
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 2:33pm CDT
    re: blort
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    blort wrote:

    DiscoGary wrote:

    Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.


    Yes, but he was 18 (and 1/2) when he graduated. Ryun was about 4 months younger when he graduated. German Fernandez was 9 months younger. Alan Webb was about the same age, and Gerry Lindgren 2 months younger.

    In order, the greatest HS runner were:
    1) Jim Ryun
    2) Gerry Lindgren
    3) Alan Webb
    4) Probably Lukas, but Ritz, German, Virgin, Jeff Nelson not far behind (as were Eric Hulst, Thom Hunt, et)

    If Lukas ran in the 60's or 70's with those shoes and those tracks (and those training regimes), he would have been a foot note. I don't think he has more talent than most of those guys I mentioned, and had little of their toughness.


    Well Verzbicas was winning world junior triathlons while setting running records on command while being a two time Footlocker champ, so he had a broader range of talent than any of the others and was about as tough as they come. He wasn't tough enough to bounce back from a high speed bike crash though.
  • Flagpole
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 3:04pm CDT
    re: Heartland runner
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    Heartland runner wrote:

    Flagpole wrote:

    Given the rules, Verzbicas was the best, but he was older than most high schoolers as a senior (19). Makes a big difference. Lots of college freshman are able to do what he did as a HS senior.


    LV was born January 6, 1993. That made him 18 during his senior track season (2011).


    Hmm...I guess that is so. Never mind then.
  • Call it what you want
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 3:11pm CDT
    re: Jimmy Cracked Corn
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    Undefeated for his career in Cross Country! HS 2 Mile Record Holder and demolished it as well. Sub 4. Multi time cross country national champion. Multi time track national champion. Sorry resume speaks for itself. Case closed. Move along to another topic.
  • westsouthrunner
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 4:04pm CDT
    re: historian
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    historian wrote:

    Arguing Princes wrote:

    Les wrote:

    He didn't just beat "international competition", he beat Peter Snell, the Olympic champion and mile world record holder, who was 26, still in his prime. He beat the best miler of his day. You can't blame Ryun for who DIDN'T line up against him. If the depth then wasn't what it is today, that was not his fault.


    This ^ is ALWAYS a totally lame argument. It has nothing to do with "blame" or "fault". Please try to get away from such nonsense.

    The question is how significant his achievements were. And it is entirely relevant to point to the quality of the competition if you are going to make a case based on his results in competition.


    Regardless, Ryan's achievements are still beyond anything Lukas did. Period.


    While that is somewhat true. If Ryun lived in Verzbicas era he would not have had the opportunities to run in the places he ran at. The equivalent in 2011 would be Lukas racing and maybe beating Centro and lagat in a 1500 at the trials or even some one like Mahkloufi which would never ever happen.

    I think the argument here is really achievements/accolades versus Times.

    I personally value times over anything. jim ryun had a faster 800-mile Lukas had a faster 2 mile-5k. Maybe we can settle and say they are the co-greatest highschoolers.
    My favorite high school runner is German Fernandez. I think he would have definitely give lukas a run for his money in the 2 mile. I also think Webb would have beaten Ryun in the mile. While Lukas seemed untouchable in XC(Cheserek came pretty close to him at NXN if I remember correctly). I think the greatest highschool XC runner is Ritz or Lindgren. I would easily put both of them before lukas. With all this being said theres no one runner that is that good from 800-XC. Except Alan Webb?
  • Jimmy Cracked Corn
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 4:54pm CDT
    re: westsouthrunner
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    Not sure if it has been mentioned but Verzbicas ran zero...not one single track season in high school indoors or out. That completely disqualifies him from being involved in this discussion. He was a cross country runner who dabbled in track. He had no interest or desire for high school competition and he showed no interest in collegiate running as evidenced by walking away after just weeks. He was the greatest quitter of all time.
  • Luv2Run
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 4:57pm CDT
    re: thegreatest?
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    thegreatest? wrote:

    Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.

    Those were some pretty big wins.


    Guessing the OP is pretty young.

    No, not even close. Jim Ryun was world class in high class in high school.
  • Luv2Run
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 5:03pm CDT
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    C. Virgin wrote:

    No.

    But he is a good cyclist.


    Then why he crash so often?
  • compressed
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 5:41pm CDT
    re: thegreatest?
    Forum Index

    This is silly. Some people are debating talent pool - well, HS runners typically and historically have run 880/800, 1500/1600/mile, and 3000/3200/2mile. As soon as you talk about longer distances, you're also talking about smaller competition pools. There's no doubt that Ryun and Webb are not only superior but far superior to LV in this domain.

    For longer stuff, LV is good, but does not have the historical greatness of Lindgren. Somebody else mentioned Chapa's 10,000 in high school which is arguably superior to anything LV did on the track. LV is probably comparable to GF and some others (e.g. Jeff Nelson) who have already been mentioned.
  • Vaporflyer
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 5:44pm CDT
    re: compressed
    Forum Index

    Jim Ryun was the best American HSer ever. Period.

    LV might have been the best Lithuanian HSer ever. I'm not totally sure of that.
  • Larry Dickman
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 6:36pm CDT
    re: Flagpole
    Forum Index
    Flagpole wrote:

    Given the rules, Verzbicas was the best, but he was older than most high schoolers as a senior (19). Makes a big difference. Lots of college freshman are able to do what he did as a HS senior.


    Good point. Verzbicas was 18 yrs 6 mos when he ran 8:29.
    Ryun was 18 yrs 1 mos when he ran 8:25.

    Ryun was simply superior.
  • GBohannon
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 6:54pm CDT
    re: Larry Dickman
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    Here is my take.

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6561540
  • TrackCoach
    registered
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 9:26pm CDT
    re: thegreatest?
    Forum Index
    thegreatest? wrote:

    Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.

    Those were some pretty big wins.


    Unless you choose to totally forget about the passage of time, Ryun and Lindgren stand alone as the GOAT by a fairly wide margin. That is a firm conclusion reached by many years thought and analysis. The mile is the premiere event in track & field, setting the record is the crown jewel in high school track and field. In fact, Lucas will tell you himself that running sub-4 was a bigger deal than winning a XC national title. With that in mind, Webb ran 3:53 in the mile and LV ran 3:59. (That's an easy comparison.) This does not negate LV's other accomplishments, 3 XC titles and setting the 2-mile record for example -or the numerous other accomplishments Webb had, which are quite impressive. I believe you can't give an athlete credit for what they perhaps could have done, but you can't take away from an athlete something they never had the opportunity to contest either. I am not going to take away from Ryun and certainly, Lindgren for not winning H.S. XC national titles when they did not exist at that time, just like I will not take away from LV for not winning relay titles as Webb did when perhaps LV didn't have teammates to win national relay titles.
  • Chez
    2 years ago 03/12/2018 9:46pm CDT
    re: westsouthrunner
    Forum Index
    westsouthrunner wrote:

    historian wrote:

    Arguing Princes wrote:

    Les wrote:

    He didn't just beat "international competition", he beat Peter Snell, the Olympic champion and mile world record holder, who was 26, still in his prime. He beat the best miler of his day. You can't blame Ryun for who DIDN'T line up against him. If the depth then wasn't what it is today, that was not his fault.


    This ^ is ALWAYS a totally lame argument. It has nothing to do with "blame" or "fault". Please try to get away from such nonsense.

    The question is how significant his achievements were. And it is entirely relevant to point to the quality of the competition if you are going to make a case based on his results in competition.


    Regardless, Ryan's achievements are still beyond anything Lukas did. Period.


    While that is somewhat true. If Ryun lived in Verzbicas era he would not have had the opportunities to run in the places he ran at. The equivalent in 2011 would be Lukas racing and maybe beating Centro and lagat in a 1500 at the trials or even some one like Mahkloufi which would never ever happen.

    I think the argument here is really achievements/accolades versus Times.

    I personally value times over anything. jim ryun had a faster 800-mile Lukas had a faster 2 mile-5k. Maybe we can settle and say they are the co-greatest highschoolers.
    My favorite high school runner is German Fernandez. I think he would have definitely give lukas a run for his money in the 2 mile. I also think Webb would have beaten Ryun in the mile. While Lukas seemed untouchable in XC(Cheserek came pretty close to him at NXN if I remember correctly). I think the greatest highschool XC runner is Ritz or Lindgren. I would easily put both of them before lukas. With all this being said theres no one runner that is that good from 800-XC. Except Alan Webb?


    I’d have taken junior year Chez to beat LV in XC. That NXN race verse LV was essentially chez’s Coming out party as a soph.
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