He often gets overlooked, but German Fernandez put together great high school only performances and track doubles:
In the 2008 CIF California State Meet at Cerritos College in Norwalk, California, Fernandez ran a 4:00.29 for 1600 meters to break Ryan Hall's state meet record of 4:02.62, and 3 hours later, ran the 3200m in 8:34.23. Fernandez's 8:34.23 (~=8:37.43 for 2 miles) converts slightly slower to the American high school 2-mile (3.2 km) record of 8:36.3. However, his 4:00.29/8:34.23 double for 1600/3200 meters is the fastest distance double in American high school history, beating Rich Kimball's 4:06.6/8:46.5 mile/two-mile double set at the 1974 California state high school championship meet.
Three weeks later, on June 20, 2008, Fernandez surpassed Jeff Nelson's 29-year-old national high school record for the 2-mile (3.2 km) race at Nike Outdoor Nationals, winning with a time of 8:34.40. Fernandez opened his first mile in 4:19.4, and finished with a second mile of 4:15. He also broke Galen Rupp's high school 3000 meter record with a 3000-meter split of 7:59.82.
Was Verzbicas the greatest HSer of all time?
High School Running
Distance
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GBN XC wrote:
Not wrote:
thegreatest? wrote:
Won NXN and footlocker then broke 4 in the mile and 8:30 in the two mile.
Those were some pretty big wins.
No, he wasn't the greatest. He couldn't beat Craig Virgin's IL course record in XC.
Had to dig up a post I saw here before, but they aren't running on the same course. They're VERY similar, but the course is now longer than it was before. Apparently, up until 2003, the IL state meet course was only 2.96 miles, and as of 2003, it was remeasured to be an even 3.0 miles along the midline:
http://archive.dyestat.com/3state/r4mw/6xc/IL-StateMeet/Index.html
The measurement requirements have changed since then so that courses are measured along the tangent, so now the official distance is 2.97 (but that also means the original 2.96 would now be even shorter). Given a change from 2.96 --> 3.0 (2.93 --> 2.97), it's actually Chris Derrick's course record that Verzbicas failed to break.
The Detweiller course changed twice.
1. 1971-2002 Original course ~2.975 miles
2. 2003-2004 course changed to allow for better management at the finish line 2.9883 miles
3. 2005-present course changed to add second bridge to back loop 2.9758 miles
So the course was "longer" for only two years, and it would have been about 7 seconds longer for anyone running at 14 flat pace. Within our ability to reconstruct the original course and measure it ... the present day course is very close to the original course length and is run over the same type of terrain with the same elevation changes. All times run in years other than 2003-2004 can be directly compared to each other.
The sham is that the NFHS rule book used to specify course measurements down the center of the track as opposed to the USATF shortest possible route method. The NFHS rule has changed since then. -
What's impressive about Verzbicas is that the Detweiller record is the only goal he did not achieve. He set the 2 mile record on his first try, and broke 4 in the mile exactly when he wanted to even though the weather was crappy.
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Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.
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DiscoGary wrote:
What's impressive about Verzbicas is that the Detweiller record is the only goal he did not achieve. He set the 2 mile record on his first try, and broke 4 in the mile exactly when he wanted to even though the weather was crappy.
how many collegiate pacesetters from oregon dragged him along to that 359? -
None. Only the second all prep race that had a sub 4 performance.
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Slopenguinrunner wrote:
And I would contend that Ryun’s 3:55 on cinders is a greater performance than Webb’s 3:53 on an all-weather track.
Ryun ran that 3:55 on a synthetic track in San Diego.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA -
According to ESPN, Ryun is #1
http://www.espn.com/page2/s/list/highschool.html -
Taro wrote:
Slopenguinrunner wrote:
And I would contend that Ryun’s 3:55 on cinders is a greater performance than Webb’s 3:53 on an all-weather track.
Ryun ran that 3:55 on a synthetic track in San Diego.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA
That track was hard "tar" - basically what they put in asphalt without the gravel. On warm days it was a bit "gooey". It was not much faster than a really good cinder track. And certainly not anywhere near a good track from today. It had no bounce. -
Taro wrote:
Slopenguinrunner wrote:
And I would contend that Ryun’s 3:55 on cinders is a greater performance than Webb’s 3:53 on an all-weather track.
Ryun ran that 3:55 on a synthetic track in San Diego.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA
Honestly, I can’t tell from that video. Some of the race lines in the sprint planes look blurry as if they were run over and not re-lined. But that can be the video quality.
But he still ran 3:56.8 on cinder losing to Snell earlier at Compton (I know I have seen other photos of Compton being cinder at a later date).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ocregister.com/2015/06/26/reid-miler-jim-ryuns-50-year-old-upset-of-peter-snell-still-a-magic-moment-in-history/amp/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jzTiEjWDTW4 -
blort wrote:
That track was hard "tar" - basically what they put in asphalt without the gravel. On warm days it was a bit "gooey". It was not much faster than a really good cinder track. And certainly not anywhere near a good track from today. It had no bounce.
Was it loose asphalt bits? Or bits of tar? Or like an asphalt street? I remember cinder tracks when I was in high school and a couple of asphalt or concrete tracks. -
Not Only wrote:
thegreatest? wrote:
Was Verzbicas the greatest HSer of all time?
Not only the greatest HSer of all time but quite possibly the greatest human being of all time!
Please explain. -
LV was severely over-aged in high school. When the public caught wind the "welllll I'm only ONE year ahead, I promise!" story was concocted. In actuality he was 22-ish as a high school senior. This was the peak of his career and he found himself absolutely crushed in the NCAA.
Even with his age-cheat boost he was not even close to the best high schooler ever. No 800 credentials whatsoever is a huge hit. Ritz's bronze at world junior XC (lost only to two EPO-ed age-cheats) is vastly superior to anything LV accomplished. Webb was better as well, with his massive 800-5000 range. -
Les wrote:
He didn't just beat "international competition", he beat Peter Snell, the Olympic champion and mile world record holder, who was 26, still in his prime. He beat the best miler of his day. You can't blame Ryun for who DIDN'T line up against him. If the depth then wasn't what it is today, that was not his fault.
This ^ is ALWAYS a totally lame argument. It has nothing to do with "blame" or "fault". Please try to get away from such nonsense.
The question is how significant his achievements were. And it is entirely relevant to point to the quality of the competition if you are going to make a case based on his results in competition. -
DiscoGary wrote:
Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.
He was also OLDER as a HS junior than Fernandez was as a senior. And his 2-mile record was in a pro race with the benefit of running behind faster folks. -
DiscoGary wrote:
Also Verzbicas had one more year of eligibility left but chose to skip his last year in high school.
Yes, but he was 18 (and 1/2) when he graduated. Ryun was about 4 months younger when he graduated. German Fernandez was 9 months younger. Alan Webb was about the same age, and Gerry Lindgren 2 months younger.
In order, the greatest HS runner were:
1) Jim Ryun
2) Gerry Lindgren
3) Alan Webb
4) Probably Lukas, but Ritz, German, Virgin, Jeff Nelson not far behind (as were Eric Hulst, Thom Hunt, et)
If Lukas ran in the 60's or 70's with those shoes and those tracks (and those training regimes), he would have been a foot note. I don't think he has more talent than most of those guys I mentioned, and had little of their toughness. -
You all keep saying Ryun was only a miler, and only beat the best miler in the world in his prime.
But he also ran the 800.
His 800m American Junior record stood for 50 years. That's a significant duration. -
Given the rules, Verzbicas was the best, but he was older than most high schoolers as a senior (19). Makes a big difference. Lots of college freshman are able to do what he did as a HS senior.
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Slopenguinrunner wrote:
blort wrote:
That track was hard "tar" - basically what they put in asphalt without the gravel. On warm days it was a bit "gooey". It was not much faster than a really good cinder track. And certainly not anywhere near a good track from today. It had no bounce.
Was it loose asphalt bits? Or bits of tar? Or like an asphalt street? I remember cinder tracks when I was in high school and a couple of asphalt or concrete tracks.
It was (semi) hard, black, tar. Like a street without the gravel. You had to wear spikes, but they felt kind of weird because they did not sneak in that much (and you had to clean your spikes afterward with a knife since a little bit of tar would build up around them).
Personally, I never liked running on it. The only advantage it had was it did not get messed up after a rain. -
Les wrote:
Let's hear it? wrote:
Bib #1 wrote:
Mary Decker set her first world record at age of 15
What WR?
From Wikipedia: "By the end of 1972, Decker was ranked first in the United States and fourth in the world in the 800 meters.[4] In 1973 she gained her first world record, running an indoor mile in 4:40.1. By 1974, Decker was the world Indoor record holder with 2:02.4 for 880 yards, and 2:01.8 for 800 meters."
4:40 as a WR is pretty weak though.
Katelyn Tuohy is 15 and ran the equivalent of that this past weekend (4:38 1600m). To be fair, she is more suited to longer distances too.
