Help me understand why Muir's coach thinks Dibaba deserves contempt for associating with Aden but Hassan doesn't for Salazar

Cottonshirt wrote:

I hold two contradictory opinons on this issue.

first, I hold to the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty....

second, I believe that all top-level athletes, not just the ones who don't look like me but all top-level athletes, are on one illegal substance or another.

Nicely put, especially the bit about the insanity of parsing the unparsible.

I'm not sure your two positions are contradictory. Whether you are following the principle that everyone should be presumed innocent until proven guilty obviously depends on which standard we use to prove someone guilty. There are good reasons to demand a higher standard of proof from courts (or the IAAF) than from fans. Most obviously, if a court finds Aden guilty, he may go to jail; if you find him guilty, he loses a fan.

Most people understand that the higher standards of proof used by courts (and the IAAF) make it so hard to prove guilt that some guilty people will go free. Most of us consider this the cost of making sure that innocent people do not get punished for crimes they did not commit.

Salazar is to Aden as Team Sky is to Lance Armstrong (before his admission). Neither Lance nor Aden bothered with L-carnitine or inhalers when they were willing to use the industrial-strength stuff. In fact, Salazar's use of these relatively lightweight performance-enhancers only makes it more likely that in fact that he is not using EPO and steroids.

Cottonshirt wrote:

it is in fact precisely because the justice system is not infallible that we afford folks the assumption of innocence until proven guilty.

May I offer a friendly amendment? It's because nobody is infallible, and because the consequences of being found guilty in before the law are so high that we require a higher standard of proof from the courts of law than from the courts of public opinion.

rojo wrote:

Mr obvious wrote:

The difference is pretty obvious.

Its like comparing the cheating Harvey Weinstein did on his wife, to a guy who picks up the latest copy of the SI swimsuit issue behind his wife’s back and then may or may not look at it swimsuit section.

One will get you divorced, the other not likely, but both are potentially cheating to a certain degree.

It's not like that at all. Terrible analogy.

You are assuming that Aden is guilty when nothing has been charged. Actually it seems to me that you are assuming both are guilty but that Salazar would only be guilty of L-Carnitine and not androgel.

Doesn't Salazar have a legitimate prescription for androgel? Sure it looks suspicious, but I'm not sure you could hold that against him.

What, you think the second fastest runner in the world isn't doping?

For one, Hassan has not shown the same jump in performance after moving to Salazar that Dibaba made working with Aden.

Going back to the first post. I'll give a 8/10 for the troll. It is almost like you forgot about all of us Rupp fans after Chicago. It is almost like you forgot the heart felt congratulations Rupp and Hasay got from fellow athletes. Chances are Hassan/Salazar are not being targeted for the simple fact they were out cheated. Aden/Dibaba are getting it because they won.

The only question I have about NOP is if Rupp has been cheating his whole career including HS, how much talent does he truly have? I'd guess if he was cheating this whole time he'd be faster than he is. Maybe he is just lazy and soft.

Are they all dirty? I don't know. If I were forced to guess I'd say they are.

Pappy wrote:

Going back to the first post. I'll give a 8/10 for the troll. It is almost like you forgot about all of us Rupp fans after Chicago. It is almost like you forgot the heart felt congratulations Rupp and Hasay got from fellow athletes. Chances are Hassan/Salazar are not being targeted for the simple fact they were out cheated. Aden/Dibaba are getting it because they won.

The only question I have about NOP is if Rupp has been cheating his whole career including HS, how much talent does he truly have? I'd guess if he was cheating this whole time he'd be faster than he is. Maybe he is just lazy and soft.

Are they all dirty? I don't know. If I were forced to guess I'd say they are.

"If I WERE forced to...

Please try again.

You are only on page two of your opinions.

Oh Please wrote:

The analogy was bad. However, one of these is not like the other. You're just trolling for posts and I'm falling for it.

No matter how you look at it, the situation and accusations are worse for Aden than Salazar. EPO versus L-Carnitine (or even androgel). One athlete (Driouch) that tested positive and saying specifically it was Aden while the others you have what may be disgruntled runners/employees making accusations with no positive tests.

I forgot about Drouich - fair enough - but I guess you've forgotten about Mary Slaney. She tested positive and was banned.

Booboo jefferies wrote:

Easy.

Why did you go soft on Dathan but hammered Gaitlin?

There is your answer.

Well Gatlin was twice convicted of doping offenses, Ritz has never been.

rojo wrote:

Can someone tell me the logic of why Hassan/Salazar are given the free pass and Aden/Dibaba are being smeared? I just don't understand it.

Even more pertinent, why are Laura Muir / Andy Young given a free pass by the Brits???

Aden has a huge sponsor backing his activities.

He is paid to produce World Class Athletes.

Pretty much similar to John Smith, Stephen Francis and Bob Kersee. Read between the lines.

Cottonshirt wrote:

I hold two contradictory opinons on this issue.

first, I hold to the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

...

second, I believe that all top-level athletes, not just the ones who don't look like me but all top-level athletes, are on one illegal substance or another. ...

If you believe the second, you don't believe the first. It's simple as that.

What is the truth then? In one sentence, please explain it to us. If it's so plain and simple, it will be easy to summarize.

Maybe you could help us understand your logic; you want the Aden's EPO raid to be equal to the NOP...uh, um, l-carnitine, Testaboost, thyroid medication accusations?

If, in your mind, these are equal then you need to throw a whole bunch more coaches, athletes, agents into the discussion rather than just NOP every single time.

Help me understand why I don't deserve contempt for associating with Rojo's website?

Rojo, I think you know the difference. One coach, we know who all of his athletes are, who his employer is, where he trains, what doctors he uses how often his athletes are tested and the fact that none of his athletes have had off-the-charts type performances. One coach lives in a country where there is a free press, rule of law and no one is afraid of dying because they told the truth and after a 3-year investigation, all we know is death is this walked really close to the line. This coach, nor any of his associates or athletes have been caught with real dope such as Amphetamines, EPO or Anabolic Steroids.

+1

I will repost since rojo seems to be so thick:

***

Well, for one thing, EPO (banned) vs. L-carnitine (not banned, only regulated, and USADA still has not brought any charges). Also, two thoroughly busted athletes (Driouch for ABP and Traby for EPO). Salazar has NONE.

Also, 3:50 and 8:16i. Hassan hasn't even sniffed such times.

Basically AlSal is suspect, but Aden is thoroughly discredited.

***

You guys keep bringing up Slaney, who was busted, then cleared, using a now defunct testing protocol. And some dodgy use of an amino acid infusion.

This against BLATANT USE OF EPO across numerous athletes. Two fully testing positive, and over eighty vials of used and unused EPO found on site.

I don't know how to make this any clearer for your muddled mind.

YMMV wrote:

In fact, Salazar's use of these relatively lightweight performance-enhancers only makes it more likely that in fact that he is not using EPO and steroids.

Do you really think a coach would risk 4-year bans for his athletes for l-carnitine, but would not use EPO or steroids, e.g. testo?

Specifically regarding this coach:

- coach of testo-drug cheat Slaney

- "testosterone medication" for Rupp as teenager

- tested testosterone on his sons

- Rupp caught with elevated testo levels

- Farah, Rupp, Centro caught with ABP violations

- used a prohibited method for several of his athletes according to USADA

- instructed his athletes to lie to USADA -> no respect for USADA

- sent drugs in hollow books across borders -> no respect for the law

- DQ of G. G. against the rules -> no respect for USATF

Do you really trust such a person?