I’m calling BS on needing 410 mile to be recruited D1. How many 410 milers per year and how many average spots go to milers?

I currently coach an NCAA bubble team school. Scholar Expert is actually pretty correct. No, I won’t name my school because we already get bombarded with enough emails from recruits. Scholarship is very hard to come by on the men’s side. There aren’t hard lines with times though. Two years back I offered a good amount of scholarship money to a 4:22 guy over a 4:15 guy. The 4:22 guy was severely underdeveloped while the 4:15 kid was already running 75-80 mpw with a workout schedule resembling collegiate training. Most coaches that are actually interested in development and not buying athletes will look at other factors. In general, we seek out a certain time but it isn’t too rigid.

Also, we do look at senior track times a lot. There are so many fast athletes that don’t sign early BECAUSE they think they will improve and be able to get more money. I have scooped tons of runners up last minute, as have many of my competitors. We don’t blow all our scholarship money in a given recruiting year by then and most have some left over for circumstances like these.

This thread will die soon but be resurrected when someone asks how big of a scholarship little Jonny can get because he won state and ran 4:20. We will all tell him that he will not get a scholarship but others will respond with a fake anecdote about how they were a 4:20 HSer who got 1/2 and then went full after they ran 4:10 their freshman year. Nobody will provide the name of the school so that we can verify. If anybody believes what they are saying, please provide the names of some of these mystery D1 colleges. Many people reading this would be excited to get a scholarship for their son and you will be helping out your alma later at the same time.

I will answer the OP, you can get recruited at many D1 colleges by running 4:10. Your assertion on needing to hit 4:10 being false has some minor validity. There are some D1 colleges who recruit 4:15 guys but the power 5 colleges are looking for 4:10 and several are looking for 4:05 guys. Also, being recruited doesn’t mean a scholarship.

It's all about your times. If you are running 15:30 in HS, and only running 35 mpw, they will still recruit you. Believe me.

Scholar Expert wrote:

By continuing these threads and misleading people, many parents have to find out the hard way that their son will not be getting a scholarship

And this--we had an anecdote comparing a state u. and an Ivy above--helps explain why the Ivy League is getting more and more competitive.

Families are looking at their *bottom line* expenses for college and seeing that it's often a better deal to have Johnny go Ivy with need-based aid...than to have him wait for a "scholarship" at Instate U. that only ends up paying for maybe half the actual expenses, that might not materialize at all, and that can be taken away after a year. This is how you see an Ivy picking up a T&FN High School Athlete of the Year (e.g. Rudy Winkler going to Cornell)--even if you look solely at the economics and ignore the Ivies' superior education/career opportunities.

With college becoming so expensive in recent years, more athletes (*and their dads*--or maybe *mostly* their dads) are realizing that you can pay a pretty high price just for the privilege of saying "I/my kid got an athletic scholarship!" Though Ivies are the most-discussed example, they are not the only schools that can provide a better bottom line without athletic aid. Even some D3 universities--I'm thinking UAA schools here, but there are others--with a combination of academic-merit scholarships (which Ivies *don't* have) and need-based aid, can offer a better deal.

456 wrote:

It's all about your times. If you are running 15:30 in HS, and only running 35 mpw, they will still recruit you. Believe me.

Agree. My son is a non scholarship recruit at a P5. His junior times were :54, 1:57, 4:25. High school mpw 35-40.

I wish people would be more precise when using the term recruited. My son wasn't expecting any money, and told the coaches that when he initially emailed them. He is a good student, but not incredible (31 ACT/1400 SAT) with decent grades. He included all of that information in his initial email. Five of the six coaches he emailed, all in P5 conferences, returned varying levels of positive responses from hey, let's talk now to let's keep in touch throughout the fall and winter. He received unsolicited attention from a handful of non P5 Division 1 schools.

Does it add up? wrote:

Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.

You're right about not being recruited - we'll recruit you. Just don't expect any $ or to be a priority for any P5 or upper-level (athletically) Ivy (like Columbia or Princeton) during the first round. A 4:12 kid is a 2nd rounder (winter visit) walk-on at these places. Unless there is something else to the story like it having been the kid's first track season ever or doing that off of something like basketball or otherwise very little training. But good luck getting any of us to listen to that during the fall.

What you really need to be recruited at any DI school in the country is two things: A vagina. And a pulse.

P5 DI Recruiting Coordinator wrote:

Does it add up? wrote:

Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.

You're right about not being recruited - we'll recruit you. Just don't expect any $ or to be a priority for any P5 or upper-level (athletically) Ivy (like Columbia or Princeton) during the first round. A 4:12 kid is a 2nd rounder (winter visit) walk-on at these places. Unless there is something else to the story like it having been the kid's first track season ever or doing that off of something like basketball or otherwise very little training. But good luck getting any of us to listen to that during the fall.

What you really need to be recruited at any DI school in the country is two things: A vagina. And a pulse.

Ivy League schools don't give athletic scholarships. They also don't give academic scholarships to incoming freshmen.

P5 DI Recruiting Coordinator wrote:

Does it add up? wrote:

Even Ivy coaches say 410 to be recruited. I just don’t buy it.

You're right about not being recruited - we'll recruit you. Just don't expect any $ or to be a priority for any P5 or upper-level (athletically) Ivy (like Columbia or Princeton) during the first round. A 4:12 kid is a 2nd rounder (winter visit) walk-on at these places. Unless there is something else to the story like it having been the kid's first track season ever or doing that off of something like basketball or otherwise very little training. But good luck getting any of us to listen to that during the fall.

What you really need to be recruited at any DI school in the country is two things: A vagina. And a pulse.

Oh, and that's a junior mark - assuming that mark is by far the prospect's best. And by recruited I mean "I'll respond, stay in touch & offer you admission assistance in the winter if any roster spots are left." With more & more distance squads being limited by administration to 10 - 15 men total on the roster, it's going to be harder & harder for solid men with potential at the highest levels of DI (which I'd consider a 4:12 guy to be) to find a place able to take them. Anyone would love a 4:12 miler...not everyone can take one. Including us...and we're a mid-pack/bubble NCAA XC qualifying team.

lease wrote:

heyyo wrote:

No academic aid? That’s nowhere near true. Not relevant for this conversation but it’s completely made up.

No, it isn't. I used to coach in the League, and there is no academic-based financial aid. Nobody gets more money because s/he has a particularly outstanding academic profile.

Coaches can and do provide aid in *admissions* for good athletes who are (slightly) marginal academically; but *financial* aid (which was the topic of discussion) is based entirely on family financial circumstances, period.

This is exactly right. Most people have no idea what they are talking about with regard to Ivy League schools. NO athletic scholarship money. NO academic scholarship money for incoming freshmen (you might earn a departmental award or something like that once you are in). Financial aid is based on family income and ability to pay ONLY, and it is quite generous at all of those Ivy League schools.

Flagpole wrote:

Ivy League schools don't give athletic scholarships. They also don't give academic scholarships to incoming freshmen.

This has been covered half a dozen times in this thread already. Welcome to the conversation Flagpole. Has anyone ever accused you of just wanting to hear yourself talk?

old former ivy swimmer on wrong board wrote:

I swam 4 years at an Ivy and qualified for O trials after my senior year in high school, and again after graduating from the Ivy. I had good grades and test scores and got a full ride academic scholarship all 4 years I was there.

No you didn't. You may have gotten a full ride based on financial need, but you didn't get an academic scholarship because Ivy League schools do not give academic scholarships.

Not mine wrote:

The Ivies are not generous. Over $150k income and you pay full fare. I have 2 at Ivies, 1 who is running and 1 who is not, and we are paying near the aforementioned $70k each which is a huge burden.

I call BS on that. How much over $150,000 do you make? Do you have outrageous non-retirement savings or something?

I have a daughter who is a junior in college, and she looked at several Ivy League schools. Our household income is just slightly less than that $150,000 limit you mention, and she would have ended up paying all of room and board and then only about 10% of the tuition cost.

The standard at the Ivies and Stanford too currently is this -- If you make $125,000 a year you can expect to get FULL TUITION, but you will pay room and board. Now, this would be the case if you don't have a million dollars in a savings account or something like that.

If you make $150,000 without some other hoard of cash somewhere (mine is mostly in retirement vehicles which they don't consider) then you should not pay anywhere near full price.

Notice how we get some school names mentioned who don’t provide scholarships for 4:15 kids but not any schools that do? I don’t believe many of the posters who through wishful thinking, continue to claim that they or their son received a scholarship.

We started a search on the East coast with Georgetown, UVA, Duke, Georgia, GA Tech, Princeton, Penn, and kept moving West when we discovered that a 1540 SAT and 4:15 Jr year are attractive but aren’t worth any athletic assistance. We continued with Penn St, OH St, Indiana, Michigan, Michigan St, Kentucky, Notre Dame, and Illinois. We finally found Bradley in Illinois who offered a nice combined package but just wasn’t the right fit so he chose one of the large national merit scholarships a bit further south. If there really are some schools who offer scholarships for relatively fast distance runners, I would like to know who they are. I think the 4:10 mentioned in the title is about the starting point for most schools.

I’m sure they exist, they’re just not places you’re all that likely to have heard of, nor are they places that are likely to attract many (if any) out-of-state recruits. Think “Directional State University”. All of the fastest kids in the state either go to the flagship school or out of state for better academics and athletics. “DSU” gives scholarships to the scraps.

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly. According to both milesplit and athletic.net There were 10 junior boys who ran 4:10 or better last indoor or outdoor. Let's say 11 if you throw in Zach Kreft's 4:10.10. There were 16 in the entire country that ran under 4:12. In looking at the mile, there were six who ran under 4:10, and at least three were the same as ones on the 1600 list. So, that means that only about 15-18 guys that have potential at the D1 level and not everyone can take a 4:12 guy - when there are only 10-11 sub 4:10 guys? That part doesn't make sense to me.

Flagpole wrote:

old former ivy swimmer on wrong board wrote:

I swam 4 years at an Ivy and qualified for O trials after my senior year in high school, and again after graduating from the Ivy. I had good grades and test scores and got a full ride academic scholarship all 4 years I was there.

No you didn't. You may have gotten a full ride based on financial need, but you didn't get an academic scholarship because Ivy League schools do not give academic scholarships.

Not sure this is entirely true. Some very well respected, non-ivy league schools with comparable academic standards do provide very generous academic scholarships that are not based on financial need.

Knight wrote:

Ummm...no wrote:

"You are correct. A TON of D1 schools will recruit you with slower than 4:10. In fact, the vast majority will."

Not to a top track/xc school with a full scholarship. Maybe partial scholarship or none. Recruited vs. recruited with full scholarship are vastly different.

Correct. If you want $, you’d need to be a 4:10 kind of guy. Remember, the women are getting most of the money. Guys have to be exceptional to get a piece of the pie.

I'm not sure if the comment about women "getting most of the money" is a complaint or just a statement of fact. If it is just a statement, then fair enough.

A maximum of 18 scholarships for women and 12.6 for men in track and field/cross country. And 12.6 for both in Division II.

Some people might find the maximums interesting:

The one I find the most interesting is, ahem... 85.

What a load of $hit.

Watch any Diamond League, Olympic, World or National track final and you will see that most and sometimes all of the non-US competitors spent their college years at US colleges on a running scholarship.

Those dozen or so US kids are competing against a pool of 4 billion for scholarships, especially in the big conferences.

Hey flagpole. My wife and I make a combined $195k and we have saved a few hundred thousand outside of our retirement accounts and we are paying the full fare. Keep in mind we have 2 at different Ivies. You would think that would have gotten us a break, but no. We didn't follow the typical American motto of spending our money thinking someone else would help us out so now here we are being responsible or foolish.