Ex-lifeguard/competitive swimmer here... while I'm no means an authority on how easy it is to forcibly drown someone, I would say that it is much easier than most think. People are not water animals, and our intuitive response to danger in the water is usually counter-productive.
In lifeguarding, one of the most dangerous situations is rescuing a DNS (drowning non-swimmer). This is because someone who is actively drowning is in a panicked state, and will latch on to anything they can as a last ditch attempt to save themselves. This includes lifeguards, or any other person who attempt to help them. They are not thinking clearly and will not wait for you to shove a flotation device at them. The classic story is that the DNS lunges and grabs the approaching rescuer, and tries to climb them like a ladder, pushing them underwater. The result is that both people may drown if there is no other intervention, which is why lifeguards and rescuers follow a very specific approach procedure. Sometimes, if a victim is too risky, it is advised to wait until they pass out/go under to grab them.
If lifeguards (usually young, fit, strong swimmers) have to be vigilant about being held under by someone who is not actively trying to kill them, then being held under by someone (who is not drowning and intending to kill you) is absolutely within the realm of possibility. Of course someone in this situation would try to fight off their attacker, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was not successful. Drowning victims typically panic in the struggle and inhale lots of water out of desperation, thus accelerating their demise. This would likely be especially true if you weren't expecting it and didn't have a chance to take in a big breath before going down.
FWIW, when I was a kid (10 or so), one of my friends who was a weaker swimmer grabbed me because she was in trouble. I was a competitive swimmer, and I was much stronger and larger physically. It was like a death grip and I got pushed underwater for a second. I tried to escape, but I couldn't, and knew that I wouldn't be able to. Luckily a parent noticed and intervened from the pool side.
David Torrence's Death Ruled an Accidental Drowning, But For His Family Questions Remain Because Of Death Threats
Report Thread
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I think we all wanna believe that DT died a freak cardiac issue.
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Winning wrote:
He was murdered is my feeling after reading the article.
Of course it is. That is exactly what they were going for. It's the winter olympics and and indoor season, the Brojos were low on their click quota, so they schlocked together an article that belongs in the Enquirer next to headlines about Prince Harry's freckle fetish. This piece was garbage as soon as it went past the medical opinions and dove into a lot of unsubstantiated reports of death threats. The kid drowned, it was tragic. There is nothing in the coroner's report to indicate any foul play. To speculate otherwise is ridiculous. This isn't "investigative". Investigative reporting brings answers, not speculation. This was tabloid.
Here, I can speculate and make it sound like journalism too:
His family obviously has some coronary risk, given his dad dying at a similar age. He crushed his workout that day in the AZ heat, so one can wonder if his electrolytes were out of whack and he was dehydrated; which can exacerbate underlying heart conditions. He obviously liked to test himself, and as a former competitive swimmer, I can tell you that doing underwater laps is a way to test your mettle. If he wanted to make his lungs scream and see how far he could push himself, underwater laps are a way to do it. If you want to know how often swimmers suffer heart attacks, look no further than triathlon mortality statistics. A heart issue that led to accidental drowning is the conclusion based upon all of the evidence, predicated on the medical opinion that the article presented and the coroner's report. Death threats are almost never acted upon, and if DT was concerned about them he would have contacted the police. That, coupled with the absence of any evidence of foul play, effectively rules out that conclusion. David's death was a tragic accident, and his death has left a hole in the running community that will not soon heal. But we at LRC will try our best to fill that void with baseless conspiracy and a large daily dose of douchebaggery while enabling a community of the most aggressive and butthurt bunch of perpetual adolescents this side of Fox News.
There... "journalism", LRC style. Was that speculative enough? -
Good thread. I've been wondering for months what was taking the coroner so long to issue a report, even though I didn't think it was anything but an accident. On the other hand the revival of this story does serve to remind us of the public service David provided in calling out the Aden training group - and I'm sure he wouldn't mind us keeping that more prominently featured in the news. As for the death threats on Facebook, they are well worth getting access to if they exist. It's entirely possible that they are related to the public stand he took on the PED issue, and it seems possible (if improbable) that they could be traced back to someone.
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meddling kids wrote:
wejo wrote:
meddling kids wrote:
Jon is not well-served by the editorial feeding frenzy Weldon and Robert attempt to create around his solid reporting.
I'm curious what you mean by this? Are you upset w some of decisions made with article or with this thread and how it's presented on homepage?
The gentleman above articulated this more eloquently than I likely will, but since you asked, Weldon:
Jon did some good work on a short timeline to report this story. I'm well aware of how long the full police report has been available, and Jon covered significant ground following up with identified witnesses, family members and medical experts.
You still have questions. The appropriate course at this point would be to apply the available tools of journalism (research, FOIA requests, cultivated sources, follow-up interviews, etc.) to those questions. Instead, the editorial approach-- which, in my opinion, undercuts Jon's work-- is to push those questions to your message board for speculation and armchair quarterbacking by anonymous posters. Essentially, crowd-sourcing a closed death investigation because you doubt the conclusion. Given the nature of the message boards, those conversations would likely happen anyway, but you and Robert don't need to be in here fanning the flames and stirring the baser instincts of your audience.
Crowd-sourcing may deliver some answers, perhaps even correct ones, but the public speculative approach, in a milieu lacking editorial constraint, can also create unintended collateral damage. Just ask the innocent individuals incorrectly identified in the Boston Marathon bombing investigation.
Dig into the questions as responsible journalists.
Jon sought the counsel of medical experts on the heart question and came back with solid, professional quotes, but you've got Robert on here asking for free legal advice via email.
It feels shoddy, loose and disorganized, on the heels of a mostly well-reported initial story.
Yes. Thank you. -
MeJournalistToo wrote:
This piece was garbage as soon as it went past the medical opinions and dove into a lot of unsubstantiated reports of death threats. The kid drowned, it was tragic. There is nothing in the coroner's report to indicate any foul play. To speculate otherwise is ridiculous. This isn't "investigative". Investigative reporting brings answers, not speculation. This was tabloid.
Actually I think you're wrong. Reporting doesn't always bring answers it somtimes highlights things that are unanswered or need to be looked into further.
Now perhaps you'd like Jon to write story only on the autopsy and ignore what his mother and other close to David think about the investigation and the possible death threats he received? I'd say that 's poor journalism.
Even if David was alive today, I'd want the death threats looked into. -
So where are the friends who told his mother there were death threats. Since his mother didn’t know about them, how about you ask the people who supposedly know?
My guess is the death threats thing is total bs. Anyway, why don’t you ask these friends? -
Frickin amateur hour in here.
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LifeSkills wrote:
The speculation is so hilariously unlikely that it borders on hysteria. Occam's razor folks. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Family history of coronary issues (dad died at 31), stresses heart with intense workout in intense heat, goes for a swim, heart goes a little arrhythmic, blacks out and drowns.
It sucks because it is uncomfortable to think that we are not all invincible and inoculated against such seemingly banal ways of dying due to our physical fitness, and something as simple as a dip in the pool could trigger an event that leads to our demise. And yet, that is about a million times more likely than a conspiracy theory about murder. Face the discomfort. We are mortal, no matter how much we train and how untouchable we may feel. David's death was tragic, but he lived a great life and left his mark on the world. We should be celebrating that, not speculating on the different ways someone may have spiked his beer, injected him with something, or assaulted him from behind. There is no evidence to support that, and it sullies the lasting image of Big Wave charging down that frickin hill to Eye of the Tiger at 1am with a gaggle of drunks cheering him on.... or, even better, David Torrence, athlete from Peru, who wanted to inspire other runners in his mother's homeland. Let him rest. Let's celebrate the man he was.
I agree with Occam's razor. As I think everyone with LetsRun has said in this thread, David dying of natural causes is still the most likely cause. But that doesn't mean we don't report on the family being unhappy with the investigation because they felt death threats were not looked into fully.
And I think you missed the quote below from the article. There is no coronary history for David to inherit in his family:
Bianca said she understands that some people may have assumed David Torrence died of a tragic hereditary health problem. It was reported by the San Jose Mercury News that Torrence’s father, Scott, died of a brain aneurysm at age 31 in 1992 and, like his father, David was 31 years old when he died. However, Bianca told LetsRun that the cause of death mentioned in the Mercury News’ story was incorrect; thus there was no abnormal condition to inherit. -
Didn’t David tell any of his runner friends about “death threats”?
Find something better than someone told someone that. -
Why should the police investigate the death threat angle if they are confident with the medical examiner's finding? I understand why the family feels the way they do, but if the police have confidence with the medical examiner's report, I don't see why there is any need to investigate anything further.
Should whoever made the death threats be brought to justice? Probably, but that's a separate issue. -
PhillyB wrote:
So where are the friends who told his mother there were death threats. Since his mother didn’t know about them, how about you ask the people who supposedly know?
My guess is the death threats thing is total bs. Anyway, why don’t you ask these friends?
I believe Jon cited 5 people in the article who said David mentioned the death threats.
1) David's friend Alex who wanted to remain anonymous to protect their identity
2) Paul Koros' -David's cousin.
3) Anna Fuka- David's ex girlfriend mentioned in police report
4) Steve Magness
Plus there is John Cook (what Cook told LRC is different than what he told the police) -
his final workout posted on strava, the morning of his death, was titled "quarters of death." I'm surprised no one has mentioned that in anything I've read, and only one poster on this thread. It was 10 (or 12, can't remember) x400m with a short rest.
To me, that sounds like that workout that was unexpectedly harder than he'd anticipated it to be, a sign something may have been awry with his heart. Then drop into cold water to "refresh", could see how that could lead to cardiac arrest.
Another interpretation could be that he somehow had intended to commit suicide later that day, though that seems far less likely. -
DC Runnerman wrote:
Why should the police investigate the death threat angle if they are confident with the medical examiner's finding? I understand why the family feels the way they do, but if the police have confidence with the medical examiner's report, I don't see why there is any need to investigate anything further.
Should whoever made the death threats be brought to justice? Probably, but that's a separate issue.
I see the argument it could be separate.
However, the timing of everything is important.
a) David's mother said she felt the detectives did not take the death threat thing seriously before they saw the medical examiner report.
b) The detective said she didn't get medical report until February 6th (last week). LetsRun.com had the report January 12th. But if it is only with the medical report that a non-accidental death could be ruled out then why weren't the reports taken more seriously before then?
If the detectives got the report back in December and came out and said "There is no way 100% someone could die like this and not have it be accidental" then fine I'd accept that. But that's not what happened. -
wejo wrote:
PhillyB wrote:
So where are the friends who told his mother there were death threats. Since his mother didn’t know about them, how about you ask the people who supposedly know?
My guess is the death threats thing is total bs. Anyway, why don’t you ask these friends?
I believe Jon cited 5 people in the article who said David mentioned the death threats.
1) David's friend Alex who wanted to remain anonymous to protect their identity
2) Paul Koros' -David's cousin.
3) Anna Fuka- David's ex girlfriend mentioned in police report
4) Steve Magness
Plus there is John Cook (what Cook told LRC is different than what he told the police)
Yet not ONE person reported it to either the media or police.
Maybe a David was just messing with them. Sounds like David’s mom is having a difficult time
Btw the “death threats” were well over a year ikd. -
I'm actually on Wejo's side on this one. That's a first. I agree with with Wejo.
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As a close friend of David's since our early teens, I'm thankful for the follow up reporting here. Ever since I got the phone call on the Monday he was found, I have felt uneasy about the entire situation. The first thing I knew DIDN'T happen was suicide. There were people out there who speculated and that saddened me to think that even people who knew him would think something like that. Clearly, they didn't know him well. I will tell you, it is not at all possible that this was the case. The police report would have stated if it was. End of story on that.
David and I spent a lot of time in the pool during our high school training. He was very confident in the water. It is still hard for me to imagine what could have happened that night to cause this. I'm still shocked. I am of the same mind as his mother and family. There is something yet to be uncovered.
While I believe that we are all entitled to our opinions, I don't think bickering serves his memory well. I would love to see this thread help in deeper discovery and truly uncover every detail so we can all feel more at ease. I still can't believe he's gone, and I hope that, if there is something to find, it is found. -
MeJournalistToo wrote:
Winning wrote:
He was murdered is my feeling after reading the article.
Of course it is. That is exactly what they were going for. It's the winter olympics and and indoor season, the Brojos were low on their click quota, so they schlocked together an article that belongs in the Enquirer next to headlines about Prince Harry's freckle fetish. This piece was garbage as soon as it went past the medical opinions and dove into a lot of unsubstantiated reports of death threats. The kid drowned, it was tragic. There is nothing in the coroner's report to indicate any foul play. To speculate otherwise is ridiculous. This isn't "investigative". Investigative reporting brings answers, not speculation. This was tabloid.
Here, I can speculate and make it sound like journalism too:
His family obviously has some coronary risk, given his dad dying at a similar age. He crushed his workout that day in the AZ heat, so one can wonder if his electrolytes were out of whack and he was dehydrated; which can exacerbate underlying heart conditions. He obviously liked to test himself, and as a former competitive swimmer, I can tell you that doing underwater laps is a way to test your mettle. If he wanted to make his lungs scream and see how far he could push himself, underwater laps are a way to do it. If you want to know how often swimmers suffer heart attacks, look no further than triathlon mortality statistics. A heart issue that led to accidental drowning is the conclusion based upon all of the evidence, predicated on the medical opinion that the article presented and the coroner's report. Death threats are almost never acted upon, and if DT was concerned about them he would have contacted the police. That, coupled with the absence of any evidence of foul play, effectively rules out that conclusion. David's death was a tragic accident, and his death has left a hole in the running community that will not soon heal. But we at LRC will try our best to fill that void with baseless conspiracy and a large daily dose of douchebaggery while enabling a community of the most aggressive and butthurt bunch of perpetual adolescents this side of Fox News.
There... "journalism", LRC style. Was that speculative enough?
Show us the triathlon mortality stats. I don't buy it. -
I've never heard of competitive swimmers doing underwater swimming laps.
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The problem with this thread is that there are multiple plausible arguments given the confirmed information the general public has been made privy to.
On one hand, David had a history of heart conditions in his family. It is therefore not a stretch to think that a dip in a cold pool following a difficult aerobic training session in extreme heat might trigger something, especially if David had decided to hold his breath underwater.
On the other hand, David was a known whistleblower and several people close to him say he received death threats. It is entirely POSSIBLE (but, in my opinion, not likely) that he was killed in conjunction with his actions against people who distribute performance enhancing drugs. It is worth noting that master dopers both have the ability to make substances undetectable and have definitely killed whistleblowers before ("Icarus")
So while it is at this point unreasonable to assume foul play given a lack of concrete evidence, I would argue that there is enough evidence to continue investigating this theory.
