How Fast were the Robertson twins before they moved to Kenya?

Yes they are both connected to doping accusations, but Kenyans and Ethiopians are not? They are clean? Probably as public toilet.

Now regarding altitude, it looks to me if I'm remember correctly that Mo Farah is not born, not lived, not trained, not fu*ked at altitude and still for 10 years no altitude fu8kers can touch him.

Please Retardo can you explain that in all your wisdom!

Thanks

Renato Canova wrote:

Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.

Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.

And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).

Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.

The altitude debate is interesting, I think it helps, but so does numerous other factors. Nice dirt tracks instead of hard cambered pavements we have here must help, Kenyans and Ethiopians probably get more training in before an injury hits.

Isn't it really the fact that there is a lot of good athletes training with each other that matters. I'll give you another example, a high school near me produces alot of world class footballers. People marvel about their track record for producing talent. However, looking at all the star footballers that came from this one school, out of the blue they produced one star, then all the up and coming kids all wanted to go to that school, one freak started a tradition (a Kip Keino perhaps). So they got the very best footballers attending their school. If the Robertsons went to Oregon or a top US University they might have been quite successful (though probably at shorter distances).

What do you think of Salazar's crowd sleeping in altitude tents set to over 3,000m?

Renato Canova wrote:

Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.

Um, ever heard of Mo Farah? How about Seb Coe? Nigel Amos?

I see that the most part of posters didn't understand the point. We are not discussing the level of the performances of the twins comparing it with what other athletes were able to do in the past. We discuss their current level, considering their starting point as talent, that was nothing exceptional, how their results in WCCCh clearly show.

While juniores (and already training in Kenya from one and half year), Jake had PB of 3'54" - 8'24" and 14'14", and Zane of 3'50"6 in 1500m. They had a lot of not African runners in front of them during the World Cross Country Championships in Mombasa 2007. Nobody, in the history of Athletics, starting from that level, was able to run 13'13" - 27'28" and under 1 hour.

This is the point, and I strongly believe that, without staying and training in altitude, their results were not possible.

About the great runners of NZ in the past, Walker was able to run in 3'32" when 22, Dixon at the same age won bronze in Olympics in Munchen and ran 3'33", and Quax represented the Country in Commonwealth Games 1970.

And, about Galen, he was already able to run, as junior, in 3'44" - 7'49" - 13'44" and 28'15", showing a big difference in the basic talent.

So, the answer to the quote can be only one : NO, without altitude they could not run as fast as they can today.

One of the things that I find quite fascinating bout these guys is that not only did they move to Kenya and become 2 of the fastest white dudes in the world afterwords, but, if you look at the recent documentary about them and compare how they run, they adopted the exact running style of east Africans.

Fast forward to 3:23 and watch how they run -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9lTJNSvUNE

Renato Canova wrote:

While juniores (and already training in Kenya from one and half year), Jake had PB of 3'54" - 8'24" and 14'14", and Zane of 3'50"6 in 1500m. They had a lot of not African runners in front of them during the World Cross Country Championships in Mombasa 2007. Nobody, in the history of Athletics, starting from that level, was able to run 13'13" - 27'28" and under 1 hour.

Bedford, Jones, Foster, and Lopes come to mind if you don't want to get too hung up on the half marathon time or the few seconds between road and track 10k times. None of them were remarkable at all when they started.

It clearly can be done without altitude.

We should consider not only the altitude factor but also the very humble living, simple alimentation and total dedication to training. Many westerners fail because they're too soft and cant live and train like that.

Westerners do not fail because they are soft. That is silly. They are not running as fast because life gets in the way of their training. I'm sure there would be a lot less quality runners in Kenya if they were all working 40+ hours a week. Instead they are afforded the luxury of free time to train and recover.

YMMV wrote:

a bunch of nonsense wrote:

.

As noted " essentially". Apart from their half times, all of their other times are average at best.

The half was not a very popular distance years ago but certainly all of those 70s and 80s guys running the 5 and 10 faster than the Robertsons were capable of a 60 half.

60:00 = 27:27 and 2:08:18.

Not a "whole bunch" of white guys in the '70s and '80s running these times. A handful a best, and that is with lax drug testing and wide-open blood doping as an option.

60-flat is a lot better than both of those times. More like 27:08 and 2:07-flat.

I agree that the altitude debate is interesting and for reasons much like you mention. For most runners, going to train at altitude represents a huge commitment to the sport. You'd expect that people most dedicated to the sport would produce superior results as a rule. And generally the people who make that move go to a high location where other serious runners have gone and train with those runners. That also is something that you'd expect would lead to superior performances.

In the 70s and 80s here in the US we had three locations that some serious runners would move to in hopes of training with really good guys and cashing in on the magic; Gainesville, Boston, and Boulder. Of the three, only Boulder was at high altitude and it eventually became an international destination as well. But it's hard to say that Boulder produced better runners than the ones who moved to Boston to train with Bill Squires or earlier ones who'd gone to Gainesville to train with Shorter and Bacheler. It's very hard to isolate the effects of a single variable in a discussion like this.

KiwiBird wrote:

Quax, Dixon, Walker did same time or faster 30-40 years ago without altitude in the 5000m

Not really, different distances and talent levels. Robertsons didn't have the level of talent the big three had. The altitude and hard work have allowed them to develop over time.

If you say Bedford was not remarkable when started, you only demonstrate your not knowledge about the athletic history.

David Bedford, born on 30th December 1949, was 6th in the World in 10000m in 1969 at 19 years of age with 28'24", improved next year running 28'06"20 finishing the season as number one in the world, in 1971 won World Cross Country Championships (at that time Cross of the Nations) and again ended the season as number one in the world in both 5000 and 10000m (13'22"2 and 27'47") and in 1972 bettered the WR with 27'30".

Brendan Foster started training when already senior, but when 22 ran 3'40"6 in 1500m, 3'39" in 1971 winning bronze in European Championships, and 3'38"20 in 1972 before moving to longer distances.

Steve Jones, and Carlos Lopes, were not runners before 20 years of age.

In athletics, we have several examples of top athletes starting their career very late, and this among African too : remember Miruts Yifter in Ethiopia, or Paul Tergat (who was a baske player till 23 years) in Kenya ; and now many marathon runners started their professional activity already old (Wilson Kipsang and Dennis Kimetto are in this group).

But you have to understand the Robertsons were already in full training, so the results when young depended on a combination of talent and training, and were not of top level.

Their improvement, such as the improvement of Sondre Moen and Julien Wanders (remember this name), are in great percentage due to their choice to live the most part of time in altitude, and in Kenya. It's true that the ambience, and not the altitude only, can have an important role in the development of athletes of endurance : however, without any doubt the effect of continuity in altitude (living and training) is to produce big improvement under the aerobic point of view (so, not very important for 800m and partially for 1500m, but indispensable for 5000 - 10000 and HM).

sp2 wrote:

YMMV wrote:

60:00 = 27:27 and 2:08:18.

Not a "whole bunch" of white guys in the '70s and '80s running these times. A handful a best, and that is with lax drug testing and wide-open blood doping as an option.

60-flat is a lot better than both of those times. More like 27:08 and 2:07-flat.

I was too conservative. Probably closer to 2:06.

You're making stuff up. Bedford and Foster may have progressed quickly but they were quite ordinary when they started. Foster was running from a young age. Bedford mentioned finishing about 70th at English schools. Maybe they progressed faster because they weren't grappling with all the additional stresses the Robertsons burdened themselves with.

Jones and Lopes were definitely running before 20. Pretty sure they both ran WCC at close to that age. Jones finished about 100th in his debut.

But the main point is that all of them reached a high level without living at altitude. It's the icing maybe but you're trying to make it sound like it creates talent.

Here you go: Lopes ran the junior race in 1966 and finished 25th. But keep telling us he didn't start running until he was 20.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_International_Cross_Country_Championships

I am no Renato fan but he is schooling the idiot trolls on this.

Jones was running before age 20 alright...barely training and smoking a pack a day. True Freak Of Nature. The Robertson's have some talent but are not freaks. Any number of American D1 recruits could accomplish the same if they made the plunge.

And to the morans that mention Mo in the context of altitude: he spends half the year or more away from his family to train at altitude.

Nope. You don't get to decide what constitutes training and what is talent.

Even when Jones knuckled down for real his progress was not rapid. He was 103 in his debut and didn't medal until 7 years later.

Lopes didn't appear again until '73 and won for the first time at 29.

I hope the Robertsons have planned their half marathon careers wisely. Seems a lot to stake their future on. They have no education and have never worked. They'll probably have to retire to Africa.

I can't believe no one has linked to this article on them from deadspin that came out 2 days ago.https://deadspin.com/a-decade-in-kenya-turned-two-teens-from-new-zealand-int-1822679686 It's really a must-read if you are a Robertson fan. They literally just showed up in Africa with no credit card and no plan. Got robbed of almost all they had and found a way.

The main thing that comes across is their drive. Unreal. Check this out.

Hey Renato

Can u give some comment on talent? Some numbers? Could Bekele and Gebrselassie just come from the farming life and run 13.30 in 5km before real training?. How much talent is needed to reach Olympic standards? How many minutes can you improve 5km with top training?