what do you think of this 5k workout?

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Scorpion_runner wrote:

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Ben Barrows wrote:

I'll also join in the camp of putting that last big vo2max workout less than 2 weeks out (8-12 days or so) from a peak race. My evidence will be purely anecdotal, and I feel like some people have different needs to peak properly, so take it with a grain of salt.

I've done a decent amount of trial and error with my peaking plan, and here's what has seemed to work really well for me from 5k to the half marathon in the past couple of years. I like to touch on all different types of training once in the last 2 weeks, and that includes vo2max intervals, lactate threshold work, maximum speedwork like short hill sprints, the long run, and some really light work at mile race pace or so (short reps, lots of rest). Every one of those sessions is not the most difficult of its type throughout the entire training cycle, but they are definitely not the easiest either - somewhere right in the middle. The only one that is on the more difficult end is the vo2max interval workout, and again, that's somewhere around 10 days out.

For example, let's say the easiest LT workout of a training cycle was 5x1 mile with 1:15 jog rest and the most difficult workout of the cycle was either a 6 mile LT run or 4x2 miles with 2:00 jog rest. For me, a workout somewhere in between the difficulty of those was 6x1600m with 1:00 rest. It's a little bit more volume than the first workout and a little bit faster due to better fitness, but not as high volume as the 4x2 miles and easier than the 6 mile LT run due to having some rest.

I pretty much follow that type of logic for all of those types of workouts that I mentioned. Getting in the vo2max workout earlier in those last 2 weeks is important, throw in the LT workout 4-6 days out, and fill in the blanks with the rest while making sure the long run is at least a week out as well. That's what has worked well for me. Of course, there's a lot of psychology that goes into peaking as well, so that should be taken into account when planning a taper too.

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The only thing I question about your 2 week out from race day workout program is the need for a long run. You didn't specify the distance of your long run, so are you referring to a distance that is more than 10 miles during your workout time period?

If so, I have to bring up the literature that it takes 3-4 weeks to recover and to see any benefits from a long run. However, we don't all have the same biological systems, so adaptation varies from runner to runner. You stated that it works for you, and at the end of the day, that is all that matters. Personally, I think the body would still be fatigued, and not be in peak form to sustain the intensity of a 5k- half marathon race. And wouldn't a long run be counterproductive while trying to maintain maximum speed intensity 2 weeks out before race day?

If I'm perceiving your information incorrectly, please let me know.

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Despite all the talk around everything, I think most of us would end up with a schedule that looks a ton like what you put together, with the primary differences being where you placed that last bit of work. I would probably go 4 days out, with strides one or two days out.

What would dictate when the strides are done is whether or not I am taking a day off before the race. What is everyone's take on the day off? If I take a day off, I always do it two day before the race and then run the day before. I know some people, they are in the vast minority, who take the day before a race off. Anyone else do that? I've always felt that I needed to run the day before in order to avoid feeling stale or sluggish, but I never really experimented much with it.

So here was the plan that I used for a recent half marathon. I know this is a discussion for 5k, but I would’ve run a PB in the 5k on race day if that was the distance, and I’ve used a very similar structure and been successful when peaking for a 5k as well.

12 days out: 6x1200m @ 5k pace with 3:00 rest
11: easy mileage
10: uphill drills/sprints (6x50m high knees, 6x50m bounding, 4x100m sprint, all full recovery)
9: moderate run (11 miles, ~40 seconds slower than LT pace)
8: easy mileage
7: long run, 14 miles
6: easy mileage
5: 6x1600m with 1:00 rest (probably ~5-6 seconds slower than LT pace)
4: easy mileage
3: 8x200m with 2:00 rest around mile pace
2: easy mileage
1: easy mileage
0: race

My mileage in both of those weeks was 80 and 70, where my peak mileage was in the two weeks before these last two weeks, and I hit 95 and 90 (the 90 week had a day off). My peak long run of the cycle was 18 miles, so I still considered 14 as a long run considering I rarely do over 10 for a normal distance run. Again, this has been very successful for me, but I also feel like I have some pretty unique physiology. I’m very very slow when it comes to speed but a little bit of an aerobic monster, so take that for what it’s worth.

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Smoove wrote:

Despite all the talk around everything, I think most of us would end up with a schedule that looks a ton like what you put together, with the primary differences being where you placed that last bit of work. I would probably go 4 days out, with strides one or two days out.

What would dictate when the strides are done is whether or not I am taking a day off before the race. What is everyone's take on the day off? If I take a day off, I always do it two day before the race and then run the day before. I know some people, they are in the vast minority, who take the day before a race off. Anyone else do that? I've always felt that I needed to run the day before in order to avoid feeling stale or sluggish, but I never really experimented much with it.

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I usually let my schedule or life dictate whether or not to take that day off. If I am traveling to a destination race, I usually try to travel two days before the race, so sometimes making that an off day is just convenient. If I'm running a local race, I wouldn't typically take the day off. For marathons I do take that day off, and it happens to coincide with my travel day, but I would take it off anyway.

To respond to your question, I ran competitively at D1 level many years ago under a truly great coach and have coached my HS XC team to a state title and 4 top ten state finishes in my first 4 years I've been coaching HS XC. I experimented extensively myself (when younger), and with the XC teams I have coached, with taking:
1. no days off in last 5 days before a race, or
2. taking the day off before a race, or
3. taking off the day 2 days before a race, then light running the day before a race.
I have found fairly consistent anecdotal evidence from my running and my teams' running that taking off the day before the race leads most of my runners to a bit of sluggishness on race day and seems to sometimes hurt performance, or at minimum not help it. It is NOT a hard and fast rule, a handful of runners, including the best one I ever coached, ran faster when taking the day off before a race. I talk a LOT with my runners individually about how they are feeling in days leading up to the races and on race day to try to figure out what works best for each runner. Some runners (there have not been many) run better by taking off the day before a race. For the more important races that I have these runners take off (big invites and championship races), I usually don't have these runners take any other days off that week because taking 2 days off for rest each week in well-trained runners seems excessive to me.

Also have assessed taking off the day 2 days before a race, then a very light run with striders the day before a race with same approach (talking to runners extensively, monitoring race results) - oddly, this has seemed to be good for the same runners that benefited from the day off before a race, so even though physiologically I would have expected there to be a difference, possibly a big one, between the results of the two different approaches, or a different set of runners benefiting from each, that has not been my experience. Therefore, I consider the 2 approaches to be the same in my approach to pre-race training for my team and usually have these runners take off the day 2 days before a big race so that the team can be together the day before a race. We talk about these things as a team so that everyone understands that different runners benefit in different ways from tweaks in our approach and our one team goal is for the team to have the best outcome by having each runner do the things that work best for them, so there is some minor tailoring of training. The first-year runners sometimes find it a little weird at first and may grumble a bit about 1 or 2 guys being able to take that day off (usually a Thursday, 2 days before our Saturday meet), but I remind them that those off-Thursday guys ran on another day that week when the rest of the team was not running, and that they have also proven they race better off that - and the newbies usually come around, especially when they see the team's and individual's results. Again, a lot of good communication and a bit of individualization, as well as having good results in runner and team development, has been our key to adoption and acceptance.

Consistency is very important to me as a coach. I want to be able to rely on my runners to run well consistently, especially at year-end meets, and I want them to do the things in the days leading up to these big races that work best for them. The best and most consistent results for me personally as a runner and for the vast majority of runners on my teams have come from taking no days off in the last 5 days (standard Mon - Fri week for a Saturday race), but to do some running each day. Late in the season, when tapering, it would be a fairly easy 5 days with just a bit of race-pace maintenance work on Monday or Tuesday (for a Saturday race) similar to what has already been posted in other posts above.

Bottom line: Anecdotally, for me and for the vast majority of runners on teams I have coached, running the last 5 days before a race, no off days, has usually been the best way to ensure consistent high-level (nearing or exceeding previous bests) 5K HS XC racing. There have been only a few exceptions and we've adjusted for just those few. It works for us, and again, I'm only talking about 5K HS XC races here, and only the experiences of the teams I have coached. Your results may vary.

Just anecdotal of course but I ran my best 5k ever with a 5 x 1000 workout 7 days prior to the race and then 6 or 8 x 400 (would have to look it up) at 5 down to 3k-ish pace 4 days out. I ran a couple times 14:20ish.

I always was more of a work hourse and I always got stale if I did my peak workouts too early. That 5 x 1000 was my best specific workout and it was preceeded by 400s at 5-3k pace, a 3k and a 10k race and some longer hard intervals (2-3-2-1k).

I guess everyone's different but I always felt the best when my best workouts were close to the race when racing on the track. In our group we even had one very good 3k where we were absolutely smashing 400s as close as 5 days out. But we all were high mileage runners (peak mileage was 100+ even for track).

With the marathon that's quite different. When racing a marathon I usually do my most specific workout 2-3 weeks out.

Oh and btw... two of the guys in my group guys ran 13:20ish 5k while being in med school and studying economics so we definitely were doing not too bad with this approach.

What do you guys think of this workout 10 days out- 1 set (2k @ 5k pace, 400 jog, 400 sprint) 1 set (4 x 400 @ mile pace). This is just what my time did this week training for indoor conference and I'm curious what lets run thinks about it.

*my team, I mean

thank you for sharing some info. this has been a cool little thread unfortunately it'll probably get lost in the archives because the title is a little different than what was put into detail here.

2000/3:00R/1500/3:00R/1000/3:00R/500... 3-4sec/1000m faster than race pace.

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K3rmit wrote:

What do you guys think of this workout 10 days out- 1 set (2k @ 5k pace, 400 jog, 400 sprint) 1 set (4 x 400 @ mile pace). This is just what my time did this week training for indoor conference and I'm curious what lets run thinks about it.

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prefan wrote:
I have found fairly consistent anecdotal evidence from my running and my teams' running that taking off the day before the race leads most of my runners to a bit of sluggishness on race day and seems to sometimes hurt performance, or at minimum not help it.

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Man, I really stayed my position poorly. I definitely did not mean to suggest not working out any more. I meant to suggest that those last workouts should be more about race Mossing and leaving you feeling fresh, fast and confident than about building fitness. Thus the suggested workouts with fair amounts of recovery, some quicker paces, some race pace work, and a bit lower volume.

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Smoove wrote:

Man, I really stayed my position poorly. I definitely did not mean to suggest not working out any more. I meant to suggest that those last workouts should be more about race Mossing and leaving you feeling fresh, fast and confident than about building fitness. Thus the suggested workouts with fair amounts of recovery, some quicker paces, some race pace work, and a bit lower volume.

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