10 days out from race, i have two workouts I'm thinking about doing today. Which one should I go with?
Option 1). 5x1200m at 5k pace with 400m jog rec.
Option 2). Ladder-400m, 800m, 1200m, 1600m, 1200m, 800m, 400m all at 5k pace and all with 400m jogs between reps.
suggest anything different?
Option two
Bump, anyone else?
My favorite is 3 x 1600 w/ 800 recovery jogs
1st 1600 @ 5k
2nd 1600 @ 5-10 sec faster than 5k
3rd 1600 @ 10-15 sec faster than 5k
Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) wrote:
My favorite is 3 x 1600 w/ 800 recovery jogs
1st 1600 @ 5k
2nd 1600 @ 5-10 sec faster than 5k
3rd 1600 @ 10-15 sec faster than 5k
That last rep would be pushing 3k pace wouldn't it?
It does... but the long recovery makes it completely manageable.
If it seems daunting then stay on the lower end of the pace bump (only -5 on the second and -10 on the third). Depending on the calculator you use... 3k pace usually falls within about 15-20 seconds/mile faster than 5k pace.... so the -10 would put you somewhere in between the two paces.
These are big workouts for 10 days out. Given that your fitness for the race is baked in at this point, the last workouts before a goal race should simulate race day, leave tounfeeling fresj, leave you feeling confident, help you lock in race pace, or so all of the above.
For those reasons, I tend to go with:
3-4 x [200-800-200] with a 200 jog between reps, 3-4 minutes between sets. 200s at mile pace, 800 at 5k pace. Moderately tough workout if you do 4 sets, pretty manageable if you do 3 sets.
Or:
3 x 200 at mile pace w/200 jog; 6 x 400 at 5k pace with 200 slow jog: 3 x 200 at mile pace withg 200 jog. 3:00 between sets.
Both simulate race conditions in that we tend to get out fast, settle in, then finish hard. Both help us find 5k pace. Both help turnover. Neither should leave you spent come race day.
I'm in the same boat as the OP, i was thinking of doing your Smoove inspired workout 5 to 6 days out from race day though.
Like you said though, if you're not 'there' by now slim chance you will be in 10 days. Would be wisr to recover as much as possible and keep workouts short and simple focusing on locking pace and fresh legs.
10 days out wrote:
Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) wrote:
My favorite is 3 x 1600 w/ 800 recovery jogs
1st 1600 @ 5k
2nd 1600 @ 5-10 sec faster than 5k
3rd 1600 @ 10-15 sec faster than 5k
That last rep would be pushing 3k pace wouldn't it?
And it would be almost mile race pace for aerobically well-trained runners. E.g.: When you run 14:00 5k and have a 4:10 mile PR... The first rep will be 4:28, the second 4:18 - 4:23 and the last 4:13 (!!!) - 4:18. Not smart at all IMO. Better race a 3k or do something like Smooth suggested or my go-to-workout: 5 x 1k with 600j (~3'). The hardest at 5k pace I ever did was 3 x 1500 at pace with 3,5 - 4' jog (700 m) and it was brutal. Might be I am a workout sissy though.
10 days out wrote:
10 days out from race, i have two workouts I'm thinking about doing today. Which one should I go with?
Option 1). 5x1200m at 5k pace with 400m jog rec.
Option 2). Ladder-400m, 800m, 1200m, 1600m, 1200m, 800m, 400m all at 5k pace and all with 400m jogs between reps.
suggest anything different?
Me Likey.
Those VO2max workouts will definitely get you prepared to race. However, ascend at 10 to 15 seconds above race pace to make race pace comfortable. And your 5x1200 workout should be done above race pace as well.
You need to stress your system slightly greater than the stress that is applied when you race for vo2max/interval training.
Also, doing the workouts 10 days before your race is fine . It fits in between the estimated time that a runner recovers from interval training : 7-10 days.
You should be well recovered before your race. Your workout is not that taxing.
10 days out from a race, I like 5 x 1000m at goal pace with with 1 minute jog.
I'm going out on a limb and guessing that the OP isn't a 4:10 miler who runs a 14:00 5k (you'd think a 4:10 miler wouldn't need to get workout ideas, they would have their training dialed in to their personal strengths already).
That said... my performances drop off a bit after the mile... i know my relative performances at 5k/10k are much worse than my relative performances at 800/1600. That may be why I can handle that type of workout better.....
Just throwing ideas out there.... OP can choose what feels best for him. Trial and error my boy, trial and error.
On another note to the other posters.... you can still get a great workout in 10 days out... are you really doing a 2 week taper for your 5k's!?... hahaha, that's a bit excessive! Some of you need to grow a pair and/or learn the basics of training/detraining theory to maximize performance
You can absolutely get a great workout 10 days out from a race, but that workout will not result in a meaningful adaptation from which you will benefit on race day. If you are planning a 5k as a goal race, you'd be better served by completing the vo2max phase of your training 3-4 weeks out from the goal race and using the final 3-4 weeks to work on things like pacing, feeling fresh, race modeling.
You can certainly train through a 5k and race it well, but if you have a 5k as your goal race at the end of a training cycle, why would you not try to plan your cycle so as to optimize the outcome?
Smoove wrote:
You can absolutely get a great workout 10 days out from a race, but that workout will not result in a meaningful adaptation from which you will benefit on race day. If you are planning a 5k as a goal race, you'd be better served by completing the vo2max phase of your training 3-4 weeks out from the goal race and using the final 3-4 weeks to work on things like pacing, feeling fresh, race modeling.
You can certainly train through a 5k and race it well, but if you have a 5k as your goal race at the end of a training cycle, why would you not try to plan your cycle so as to optimize the outcome?
All do respect, and I mean all do respect, he should do his last interval training session 3-4 weeks out before a goal 5k?
That is complete nonsense. He is not training for a marathon, and even marathoners do some interval training after 3-4 weeks out. Hell, a lot of runners do interval training 5-7 days before a 5k race, and some do short interval training 3-4 days before a 5k race.
That is insanely conservative, and I believe the body would suffer from it. Muscle memory is key, and you want the body to maintain the ability to run fast comfortably. Plus we don't all have the same biological makeup, so some adapt quicker than others. But to say that runners need 3-4 weeks to have proper vo2max adaptation to run a goal 5k race is unfathomable.
A few points:
I never suggested that you not do any intervals later than 3-4 weeks out. I suggested that you complete your primary vo2max block by that point so as to ensure obtaining the benefit of the adaptation.
There is a fair amount of literature out there that tells us that it takes 2 to 4 weeks to detrain vo2max. When you do threshold runs, cruise intervals, etc., there is a positive vo2max impact. Not all vo2max benefits come from only doing vo2max workouts, so you could continue to train vo2max without doing vo2max intervals (although probably less efficiently). See Tinman's critical velocity approach as one example of this.
Read the workouts that I suggested to OP. Both included work at vo2max pace, just at reduced volumes.
So to recap: I never said don't do intervals of any sort within the last 3-4 weeks. I never said don't do work at vo2max pace the last 3-4 weeks. There is good scientific literature suggesting detraining of vo2max takes 3-4 weeks. There is good scientific literature suggesting vo2max training can be effectuated by way of workouts other than vo2max workouts. I did say use the last 3-4 weeks for a different emphasis, with that emphasis being race day preparation, which would include race modeling, locking in race pace, improving turnover, running a bit faster than race pace to make race pace feel more manageable on race day and to ensure recovery for race day after an intense training cycle. The workouts I suggested 10 days out actually include vo2max paced work. If he had asked me for a workout for 3-4 days out, some intervals would have been involved there as well.
Finally, and I'm not being a jerk here, just noting: it is "all due respect."
5 x 18 mile
Let's use a case study as an example of what this looks like in the real world. I recently started coaching a 26 year old woman with an 18:11 5k PR, having run at an SEC school (that was sprint dominated, and didn't have much of a distance program). She was going to be racing 5k/10k, but also wanted to race a half marathon at the end of her training cycle. She has a bit of an injury history, so she cannot handle high volume. We decided on an approach where she would average 45 mpw on 5 days a week of running, with a peak of 50 miles. You can come at the half in one of two ways. Because of that need for relatively low volume, we decided to go with a 5k/10k oriented approach to the half rather than a marathon approach to the half. That meant 5k/10k oriented track sessions balanced with longer tempo sessions, which were often combined with her long run in order to give her more recovery days between workouts and because with only 5 days per week of running, I didn't want 60% of her runs to be quality days.
Below are her track sessions to finish out the cycle. She ran a 17:3x 5k at the end of the cycle. Well, in full disclosure, the 5k was the next to last week of the cycle, the goal half-marathon was at the end of the last week listed below. This does not include an additional weekly tempo session. Note the inclusion of workouts right up through the last week. Note the workouts at vo2max pace right up until the week of the 5k, the week before the half. Note the work at faster than race pace the last three weeks. I never suggested that you pack it in and stop working the last month of a training cycle; but rather that the emphasis of your focus should shift to recovery and race modeling, not fitness building. If you are doing workouts 10 days out in the hope that they will increase your fitness for race day, THAT is a disservice.
6 x 800 at 5krace pace with 2:30 rest
5 x 1000 at 5k race pace with 3:00 rest
4 x 1200 at 5k race pace with 4:00 rest
4 x 1 mile at tempo pace with 1:15 recovery
5 x 1000 at 5k race pace with 3:00 rest
3 sets of 200 at mile race pace, 200 jog, 800 at 5k race pace, 200 jog, 200 at mile race pace; 4:00 jog between sets
3 x 200 at mile race pace with 200 very slow jog; 6 x 400 at 5k race pace with 200 slow jog; 3 x 200 at mile race pace with very slow jog
1 mile up; 4 x 1200 at tempo pace with 1:00 rest; 1 mile down
Slow jogger wrote:
I'm in the same boat as the OP, i was thinking of doing your Smoove inspired workout 5 to 6 days out from race day though. .
It takes 10-14 days for a workout to even get into your legs, so doing your peak race 6 days out will do nothing but drain your legs for race day. The 'hay is in the barn' after that, so you wont really get much out of your workout less than a week from your peak race. Thats why you taper the last 2 weeks of a season.
Ended up going with a 4x1200 at 4 to 6 sec faster than race pace with 400 jogs as my workout. I know this workout won't be a miracle workout that will put me over the top on race day, I did it more a confidence workout to let me know I'm not far off my goal.
The Smoove workout that I'll probably do Sunday or Monday is 3 to 4 sets of (200@mile, 200 jog, 800 @5k, 200 jog, 200 @mile) with 3 to 4 minute rests between sets seems like a solid emulation to stimulate the legs 5 to 6 days from a race. My 800s will be done at a 5k pace I expect to sustain on race day, not necessarily my 5k goal pace. So probably 5 sec slower than my 5k goal pace since I won't be expecting 100% fresh crispy legs.
I don't want to skip my threshold workout foe the week so I'll probably opt for 2 x10 min at tempo pace this Friday or Saturday, cut my long run down to a mid week long run recover from Tuesday to Saturday possibly do some easy strides Thursday or Friday leading up to Saturday's 5k race. I'm starting back up Daniel's training cycle in mid March. Right now I'm just trying to make the most of what I can do for now, knowing I'm not exactly in peak position for my races, but trying to position myself for the best I can perform in a race at the moment.