I attended a clinic with the top high school cross coaches in the country: ask me anything

Loudoun Valley has an enrollment just over 1300 students, which makes it a medium sized school in Virginia. We are half the size or less of the largest schools in Virginia. We have 6 classifications (which is silly for most sports) and we are in class 4.

At what mileage do you feel is appropriate to add doubles for female runners? If under 50 miles, is it better to just have one run a day or have a couple shakeouts mixed in.

To "A dad" and Pappy"

I guess the best way to answer this would be to give the positives and negatives as I see it, so here we go:

Positives about taking a winter break from running:

1) Mental break - We give our kids a 2 week break (between seasons) away from the team and away from me. They typically get about 5 days of no running and then start back with two-days-on-one-day-off after the 5 days. Some information we have read supports the mental break aspect more than the physical aspect and that is what I have observed as well. I find that my better runners "sneak" back to practice early so that is a sign to me that they are refreshed, from a mental aspect, and ready to start the grind of the next season.

2) We want athletes - We love to develop the athlete, not just the runner, and playing other sports helps that. On our youth team (ages 9-14) we encourage our kids to play other sports and specifically do not have a winter running program for that reason. We urge kids to play basketball, indoor soccer, indoor lacrosse, etc. We prefer that they do something weight bearing vs., say, swimming (although we find nothing better for developing the “engine”, but these kids are very fragile if they do not run while they swim). Playing other sports stresses the ligaments, tendons, muscles to a point where running does not and therefore, I believe, will pay off from an injury prevention standpoint when the athlete turns to running full time.

Negatives about taking a winter break from running:

1) DO NOT stop running - As I mentioned earlier in the thread, both Drew and Jacob (my sons) played basketball their freshman year, but they did continue running during the season; after easy practices, loaded up miles on the weekends, etc.

2) Increase in injuries - Yes, by taking a break from running you increase the chance of injury when you return. This still bothers me and that is why we only take about 5 days off after a season...and my athletes still get injured. You would think the opposite; rest the body, it recovers/repairs itself, and then you are ready to start the next season on a fresh pair of wheels. That is not what we observe. In fact, this observation was supported by the panel of professional runners at NXN. It seemed like every major injury was preceded by a prolonged time off of little or no running (and think of the year Matt Centro had after his World Championship year and subsequent long break). I would really like other HS coaches to weigh in on this and get their observations.

3) Chance of Injury - Going from a straight ahead, running-only sport, to a ballistic, lateral movement, quick change of pace and direction sport significantly increases the chance of a major injury. There is no easy transition to high school basketball, right? The goal is to make the team so a kid will absolutely sell out during tryouts, which is a recipe for disaster. In fact, a severely turned ankle during basketball convinced Drew to give up the sport and focus solely on running. Over the last two years, from gym class activities alone, we have lost several runners to broken bones and concussions.

4) Weight Gain – Not a surprise

5) Moodiness – Most likely due to getting out of a routine

Suggested study: Committed Exercisers And Exercise Deprivation: The Relation of Biochemical Mark

The best way to get better as a runner is to run more and train smartly (duh!). That means that at some point (we believe it is after your freshman year in high school), you need to commit to running and running only. The most recent high profile HS athlete to make the transition from two sports to running was Grant Fisher, and he had a pretty good HS career. Now to get the benefits from other sports (I like to call it "general athleticism"), we spend a lot of time on drills, body weight circuits and weight room time to develop/enhance that general athleticism.

A previous thread (from Pappy) mentions how well a couple of runners succeeded at a high level while playing basketball over the winter. That is an anomaly and I would "bet the ranch" that had they not played basketball, and trained properly over the winter, they would have run even faster.

a dad wrote:

Coach Hunter:

I started a thread earlier that didn't get much response. You mentioned basketball. Can a kid (Girl specifically) reach their running potential by running XC and outdoor track while training in the summer but playing basketball in the winter?? A big part of me thinks yes, a break is good for the body and mind and its not like a break sitting on the couch, they would be playing basketball all winter. Another part says thats 8-12 weeks where they are not training and their competition is... Would love to hear your input.

Well, Mark Coogan played basketball all four years of HS. Did not reach his potential in HS, but in all honesty that is fine, he went on to a great pro career, made an olympic team and ran really well into his thirties. He might have run faster in HS by being full time, but willing to bet he would not have developed as well or lasted as long if that was the case.

I also knew the college coach recruiting him, he loved the fact that he played basketball, it kept the recruiting competition down to where he was able to get him. Most college coaches recruit a time as opposed to an athlete with potential, they didn't see what he saw.

How much sleep for young athletes? Well, I think social interaction is more important than running, take that as you will. 8-10 hours ideally for recovery, but they have to experience some extra curricular activity or they will go nuts. But not too much or they will go even nuttier.

How much cooldown and why? Enough to come down from the adrenaline high. I think thats' the real benefit of a cooldwown. If a cooldown feels too hard even at jogging pace, then that's a sign the workout was too hard.

As with most things training related...it depends. You probably don't NEED to do doubles if the girls are running under 45-50 miles a week, but there still might be a place for it. I will also point out that our girls are not at the same level as our boys, and I am pretty sure this is part of the reason. Also, mileage levels and talent levels are something to think about. If you don't have girls with a lot of natural talent, they are going to need to run more, at least in my experience. The naturally talented girl may not need to run as much.

Most of my girls do not double, but half of them in my top 10 are young, freshmen and sophomores, or are middle distance types who don't seem to handle more mileage very well. My sophomore girl who is not allowed to run on Sunday is starting to do doubles, as she needs more mileage to be successful (definitely a distance girl, not speedy). My top girl, a senior who runs about 50-55 miles per week with an occasional 60 mile week, runs 2-3 doubles a week. I think you need to ask yourself what your goal is with running doubles. Maybe it's to build more mileage. Maybe it helps your runner feel better for her afternoon workout. Maybe your runner would benefit from a little metabolism boost from a morning run :-) Maybe your runner is fatigued, and you don't want to drop mileage too much, so you split it into two shorter runs which helps recovery (as long as they don't cut their sleep to get in the morning run.) Maybe your runner is going to run in college next year, and you want her to try doubling a little bit since you know she will need to do it next year.

So...you would suggest to kids with running talent to do no running over the winter, but instead play basketball? Mark C. is an anomaly. I would still contend that Mark would have been a better college runner if he had trained over the winter instead of playing basketball in high school. It turned out well for him because he was able to overcome missed training with innate talent...my opinion. I had a two teammates in college, Joe Dubina and Neal McConnell, who played football and wrestled, respectively, so they each missed a season of running. They did not run well until late in college because they spent time "catching up" from a training perspective. The whole idea behind TinMan's "Keep the ball rolling" mantra is to maintain long consistent periods of training without interruption and I believe that all of the high school runners he coaches train consistently and year-round - Tom, weigh-in here if you would like.

Joan, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am trying to strike a balance of building mileage slowly and properly, as I have a young team. If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts on taking a day off every week? Do you feel it is necessary or should it be individualized, based on each runner?

Since one of the Hunters asked about injuries after down time...

I've noticed the same pattern - athletes who take too long off have to be brought back very slowly. The longer the downtime, the longer the return. Same thing with rate of buildup. The higher the previous mileage peak, the more quickly they can build mileage safely.

We do 1 week off and then every other day at low mileage, then five days (six if they are mileage junkies). After that we begin building up the mileage.

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order, about running 6 days vs 7 days a week:

1) First year kids and some 2nd year kids run 6 days a week on our team. If they have some youth running background, I might make an exception to this, or have them take a day off every 2 weeks, but for the most part, they go 6 days a week.

2) If you run a higher intensity, higher density program than we do, your kids may need a day off each week. I think our kids run "easier" workouts than almost all top programs. We also run pretty slow on our easy days.

3) My kids who run 7 days a week are better, overall, than my kids who run 6 days a week. I'm not counting the freshmen in this, I mean the older ones who just run 6 days a week.

4) My kids who run 7 days a week seem to improve more each season/each year than my kids who run 6 days a week.

5) My kids who run 7 days a week have fewer injury issues than their 6 day a week teammates. Seems odd, doesn't it? Maybe I should have all the injury prone kids run 7 days a week...and see what happens.

6) My kids who run 6 days a week are often less dedicated to the program and many don't run year round. They are often the kids who do it more for fun than to be the best they can be. They still generally improve each year, but not as much as they probably could. I don't lose a lot of sleep over this, and I don't see any reason to push them into running 7 days a week unless they are motivated to be better than they are. If they ask me how they can get better, I usually encourage them to try running 7 days a week.

7) My kids who run 7 days a week love running more than my kids who run 6 days a week. I'm not sure which came first, the love of running or the 7 day weeks for some of the kids.

8) From what I can tell, top programs who take a day off each week do doubles. LOTS of doubles. They aren't sacrificing mileage by taking a day off.

Hope this helps.

No, not suggesting no running, just saying it is not always a bad thing. Shalane Flanagan was a swimmer during the winter while in HS, turned out OK for her, even in college. Sometimes in order to keep the ball rolling it is good to take a break, both physically and emotionally.

There are HS kids who overdo the racing and training in HS and never reach their potential because of that. The desire to coach NXN caliber teams is going to be interesting, times are improving across the board at the HS level. Is that going to produce better college level and beyond runners?

I've coached HS cross country and track and field for a long time. I've really enjoyed this thread and appreciate the generous contributions from the successful coaches on the panel.

Here's the point I'd like to make: Our country is full of dedicated, intelligent, caring, thoughtful coaches who will never have a powerhouse program like FM or Great Oaks or Louden Valley, etc. AND THAT"S OK.

The reality is that many coaches face structural limitations beyond their control:

1. enrollment

2. socioeconomic status

3. weather

4. other sports

5. administrative support

6. funding

The reality is that many passionate, knowledgable coaches work with small, underfunded teams that get little support. And, despite these challenges, they have tremendous success with the small pool they work with. Usually that means more individual than team success. It also means there may be long periods without remarkable performances.

In my section/district, one of the most admired and respected coaches has never won a team title, and often has dry spells, but he uses intelligent training, has a great team culture, and is dedicated. He's been doing the things suggested by the panel for 20 years.

And to be fair, many coaches who take credit for "creating" a culture are really exploiting the preexisting culture and conditions that they, frankly, have nothing to do with.

Not every great coach will coach a powerhouse, Not every powerhouse coach is great.

To the Hunters & Sloan - thank your for contributions on this thread. Here in MN most of the runners nordic ski during the winter, especially if you look at top programs like Wayzata. A couple of years ago Wayde Hall from Stillwater qualified for state in wrestling (120# class) and ran 9:0x in the 3200. I think a key to being a multisport athlete is that you need to do some amount of both sports year round. The best nordic skiers/runners are roller skiing during spring-summer-fall and they do some running during the winter.

Marc Hunter wrote:

requiring all 9-10th graders are required to do a field event or hurdles. Even if they are varsity for a distance event they have to compete in JV for their field event. I LIKE THAT IDEA WITH THE CAVEAT THAT I AM NOT SURE I WOULD WANT AN OUTSTANDING FRESHMAN DISTANCE RUNNER TO BE RUNNING OVER HURDLES AT A HIGH SPEED :-)...PLUS WE HAVE YET TO FIND A HURDLE COACH AT VALLEY :-{

Negatives about taking a winter break from running:

1) DO NOT stop running

Completely agree, I think it is best to keep up with sprinting/mechanics and then some easy running

3) Chance of Injury - Going from a straight ahead, running-only sport, to a ballistic, lateral movement, quick change of pace and direction sport significantly increases the chance of a major injury.

Going to your point above, what about playing basketball after easy practices or on the weekend? WE HAVE A BASKETBALL HOOP IN OUR CUL DE SAC AND, YES, THE NATTY BOYS HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO PLAY A LITTLE HOOPS AT THE HUNTER HOUSE AFTER A PRACTICE.

Over the last two years, from gym class activities alone, we have lost several runners to broken bones and concussions.

Yikes, what is going on in LV's PE classes? PRETTY CRAZY...I AM HOPING JUST BAD LUCK AND FOR THAT TREND TO SLOW DOWN! I LIKE THE FACT THAT OUR COUNMTY STILL REQUIRES PE FOR FR AND SO KIDS.

4) Weight Gain – Not a surprise

I don't personally do this, but a MN XC and nordic skiing powerhouse coach purposefully tries to have his kids gain muscle during ski season. They do more hypertrophy style weight training once XC is done and really talk to the kids about eating lots of protein. My anecdotal evidence is that during the winter the kids will put on 10-15 pounds while doing a greater volume of endurance training than in XC season. This is aided by the hormonal profile of a 16-18 year old male obviously. They scale back on the weight room work during track and the kids seems to slim down, not that I think carrying a bit of upper body weight hurts the 800-3200 that much. By fall their runners don't seem bigger than the other teams. I HAVE A GUY IN MY OFFICE WHO WENT TO SCHOOL AT RICHFIELD AND NORDIC'ED OVER THE WINTER. HE SAID IT TOOK HIM FOREVER TO GET BACK TO RUNNING FORM (SAID NOTHING ABOUT WEIGHT GAIN) AND FELT HE NEVER WAS ABLE TO GET OVER THE HUMP BECAUSE THE TRACK SEASON ENDED TOO QUICKLY.

The most recent high profile HS athlete to make the transition from two sports to running was Grant Fisher, and he had a pretty good HS career. Now to get the benefits from other sports (I like to call it "general athleticism"), we spend a lot of time on drills, body weight circuits and weight room time to develop/enhance that general athleticism.

This stuff is great, but I believe in sometimes just playing other sports for a warmup/cool down on an easy day. IN OUR FIRST COACHING GIG AT SOUTH LAKES WE PLAYED ULTIMATE FRISBEE WHICH I THOUGHT WAS A GREAT COMPLIMENT TO OUR RUNNING PROGRAM. WE STOPPED BECAUSE THE KIDS WERE GETTING VERY COMPETITIVE AND SUBSEQUENTLY INJURED.

Comments from marc in ALL CAPS

I've coached HS cross country and track and field for a long time. I've really enjoyed this thread and appreciate the generous contributions from the successful coaches on the panel.

Here's the point I'd like to make: Our country is full of dedicated, intelligent, caring, thoughtful coaches who will never have a powerhouse program like FM or Great Oaks or Louden Valley, etc. AND THAT"S OK. TOTALLY AGREE WITH ONE CAVEAT: I THINK THAT GOOD COACHES, WHO HAVE GOOD CULTURES/PROGRAMS, WOULD/SHOULD HAVE STATE QUALIFYING TEAMS AT THEIR LEVEL ALMOST EVERY YEAR AS WELL AS COMPETE FOR HIGH PLACES IN THE JV RACES AT INVITATIONALS. IT IS WHAT GOOD PROGRAMS DO...SHOULD STRIVE FOR. NOW I AM NOT SAYING THEY WIN THE STATE MEET OR QUALIFY FOR NATIONALS EVERY YEAR, BUT GOOD COACHES SHOULD SHOW SUSTAINABILITY AT A SOMEWHAT HIGH LEVEL REGARDLESS OF THE "STRUCTURAL LIMITATIONS". FOR EXAMPLE, I COACHED CROSS COUNTRY AT SOUTH LAKES FOR 10 YEARS. IN THOSE 10 YEARS I HAD ONE TEAM MAKE IT TO THE STATE MEET! I HAD SOME OF THE STRUCTURAL PROBLEMS YOU MENTIONED BELOW BUT THERE WAS, HONESTLY, ONLY ONE REASON WE DID NOT SUCCEED...I WAS A LOUSY COACH! I TRIED TO DEVELOP A CULTURE IN THE WRONG WAY, I USED SOME OF THE STRUCTURAL LIMITATIONS AS AN EXCUSE, I COACHED USING OLD SCHOOL TRAINING PARAMETERS (LOW MILEAGE, TWO HARD WORKOUTS A WEEK, NO INJURY PREVENTION WORK, TRAIN FOR THE SEASON; NO LONG TERM VISION, ETC.) AND I DID NOT WORK AS HARD AT DEVELOPING AND SUSTAINING A GOOD PROGRAM AS I DO NOW. I DON'T THINK WE CAN SUSTAIN A NATIONAL PRESENCE AT LOUDOUN VALLEY, BUT I THINK I SHOULD BE FIRED OR QUIT IF WE DON'T QUALIFY AT LEAST A GIRLS OR A BOYS TEAM TO OUR STATE MEET EVERY YEAR.

The reality is that many coaches face structural limitations beyond their control:

1. enrollment SHOULD NOT PREVENT YOU FROM COMPETING AT A HIGH LEVEL WITHIN YOUR DIVISION/LEVEL

2. socioeconomic status ABSOLUTELY AN ISSUE

3. weather BE CAREFUL HERE; LOOK AT FM...SYRACUSE...DESERT VISTA

4. other sports NOT AN ISSUE; WE ALL FACE COMPETITION FROM OTHER SPORTS

5. administrative support CAN BE AN ISSUE BUT, IN OUR CASE, WE WERE ABLE TO GARNER SUPPORT AS WE GOT BETTER

6. funding SOMEWHAT OF AN ISSUE BUT I FOUND THIS IS USUALLY A FUNCTION OF WORKING HARDER TO RAISE ENOUGH MONEY...CLOSELY LINKED TO #2

The reality is that many passionate, knowledgable coaches work with small, underfunded teams that get little support. And, despite these challenges, they have tremendous success with the small pool they work with. Usually that means more individual than team success. It also means there may be long periods without remarkable performances.

In my section/district, one of the most admired and respected coaches has never won a team title, and often has dry spells, but he uses intelligent training, has a great team culture, and is dedicated. He's been doing the things suggested by the panel for 20 years.

And to be fair, many coaches who take credit for "creating" a culture are really exploiting the preexisting culture and conditions that they, frankly, have nothing to do with.

Not every great coach will coach a powerhouse, Not every powerhouse coach is great.

1. Carmel HS / Carmel, IN [Finished 10th] 4830 (coed enrollment)

Can't believe there's a high school with nearly 5000 students. That's nuts.

Even nuttier is that Carmel HS - with it's ~5,000 students - competes in a state where XC is a single class sport. Nutty indeed.

What types of folks were there ? Coaches? Where from? How many? Was is a schmoozing event? Merch being given away or sold? After parties ? ( An AAU basketball event would be a partaaay).

Fun runs? Job interviews? Biz deals being made ?

Worst presso, best presso? (Or at least most applauded)

a dad wrote:

Coach Hunter:

I started a thread earlier that didn't get much response. You mentioned basketball. Can a kid (Girl specifically) reach their running potential by running XC and outdoor track while training in the summer but playing basketball in the winter?? A big part of me thinks yes, a break is good for the body and mind and its not like a break sitting on the couch, they would be playing basketball all winter. Another part says thats 8-12 weeks where they are not training and their competition is... Would love to hear your input.

My $.02 - I've had 2 girls that I would consider truly fast (podium at state meets). Both played basketball. Many of my kids play winter sports. We're a small school and as one coach put it, if we don't "share kids" then we all are going to have a tough time.

My first year at Hughson, we did not have cross country. I coached football (because I was advised to say I could in my teaching interview). We had a girl at our school (junior at the time) who had run 5:26 / 11:19 as a sophomore (or maybe it was 5:19 / 11:26.....I don't remember). She ran cross country for her first time as a junior, training with a rival program that would later go on to produce 2 state champs, one of them was German Fernandez. She played basketball during the winter, but the coach from the rival high school continued to coach her during the winter. During basketball season, she was also training consistently. Reaching 50 miles on some weeks (I don't have records of this, it was 20 years ago and I wasn't coaching her yet).

Our season started in February and bball ended soon after, this is when I started working with her. Running off of the fitness she had gained during the winter, she ran 11:00.74 at an all comer's meet in February. She progressed to 4:59 and 10:40, the later time earning her 6th place at the CA state meet. She went to USAJ and placed, I believe, 5th in the 3k.

The following year, we decided to focus solely on running. She didn't play ball during the winter. Her training was a little more focused and geared toward 1. Trying to win a CA state title and 2. Running well at USAJ. After a very good season, she had a horrible state meet, finishing 13th in 10:5x. However, a week later she rebounded and ran 10:30 for second place at Golden West, mixing it up with state champs from NY, IN, IL. A few weeks after that she went to USAJ and placed 3rd in the 5k, beating that year's FL champ in the process.

At the time, I credited the improvement to my awesome coaching and the fact that she had focused during the winter. Now I feel it could have simply been a matter of maturation and a year of solid training under her belt.

My other fast girl was from a basketball family and played all 4 years, as a result (especially during junior and senior year) her running training was sub par. She ran 5:01 as a sophomore, but never improved in HS after that (but never got worse either. She recently finished her collegiate career as a solid contributor to a D1 program).

Right now, I have a girl who ran 5:18 as a frosh (first year of running ever) but only improved to 5:14 as a soph. She played basketball between cross and track as a frosh but did not as a sophomore. Her Junior season ended very disappointingly, and she decided to try out for the soccer team with a bunch of friends. Because she's fast, she made the team. She is doing some running on her own after practice and on weekends, but the volume is pretty low (which I think is fine, because she's getting a pretty intense running workout at soccer practice). We'll see how this track season goes.

My gut feeling is that kids are fine to do a winter sport, especially if they are able to maintain a small amount of distance running on their own. For many, I think the mental break from the grind makes up for the lack of aerobic running they would otherwise get.

It is OK for HS kids to try different things, they can fully commit in college. Some will make the commitment earlier which is fine. Not every HS coach feels that going to NXN is the measurement to live by. Not taking anything away from the programs that go every year, also not taking anything away from the programs that never go. It is a choice, no secrets, just work hard and be committed.