Steve Ovett Moscow the second greatest Olympic 800m performance (behind Rudisha 2012)?

You silly wrote:

I'm not sure why you rate 2nd place in the Mexico City Olympics so highly. He did't even win. The winner was better and broke the world record.

Tactics are a huge element in 800m racing. It's part of the event. Poor tactics, equals poor performance.

Getting it right in the championship final is the essence of the sport.

If you actually read what I posted, you will find that I wasn't overly impressed by Kipwhatever in 1968.

Covett, you are blinded by your loyalty to Coe and Ovett wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Yes they did. There was never a 800m race between 1978 and 1983 where a fit and healthy Coe or Ovett would not have been clear favourites, and they only lost championships in that period either to doped opponents (Beyer 78), or because they were ill or absent through injury (ex. Coe in 82 Euros).

Juantorena was not a factor after surgery at end of 77, and it wasn't until Cruz in 84 that the torch was passed.

If it were your neck on the guillotine Coevett, you certainly would not bet Coe was clean in the 1970s and 1980s. Beyer dirty and Coe clean? No. If you were to tell me both Beyer and Coe were dirty and I would agree.

Well neither failed tests, so we have to rely on known circumstantial evidence.

Evidence against Beyer :

1/Competed under the most notorious state sponsored doping program in history, run by a brutal Marxist dictatorship that spent half its GDP on coming first in medal tables to 'prove' the ideological superiority of Marxism.

2/His name was indeed found in a Stasi list of doped athletes.

3/His coach was closely associated with another coach subsequently jailed in unified germany for doping children in the DDR.

4/His coach himself was convicted and fined in unified Germany of feeding his child athletes dangerous and illegal drugs.

5/Came out of nowhere to beat the two best 800m runners in the world at Prague and ran one of the fastest times in history at the time. Ran patchily for the rest of his career, to say the least, aside from 1981. The story that he 'injured his foot playing football in 78, and was never the same' comes from his criminal coach. There is no way of confirming this story. It's just as likely he suffered complications from all the doping, or simply the doping regime was 'spot on' before Prague.

Evidence against Coe :

1/ He was fast. Freaking fast. And white. Kenyans are genetically superior to white hobby joggers and yet only 2 Kenyans in nearly 40 years have ran faster.

2/ He was ill for a long period with a blood virus problem. That virus can be transmitted through blood transfusions, although if Coe was blood doping, it would involve only is own blood being taken out and put back in again.

Cirumstantial evidence that Beyer wasn't doping :

1/ He's a maths/physics teacher now. (???)

Circumstantial evidence that Coe wasn't doping :

1/ His progression was entirely normal, especially for his build (i.e. much slighter built teen than Ovett or Cram).

2/ He ran times as close to his pbs at an 'advanced age' AFTER much better testing for doping (and blood doping made illegal) as you would expect.

3/ He is now president of the IAAF. It would take the psychology of a psychopath to take on that role if there was real dirt waiting to be discovered on him. A simpleton would be aware that Russia has probably spent millions on trying to uncover evidence of doping and they clearly haven't found anything. Not to mention all the journalists over the last 40 years.

4/ UK did not have a doping culture in middle-distance back then. It's clear that the athletes after Coe, Ovett, Cram were not doping despite nearly the whole of the rest of the world drowing in EPO. It's hard to believe that in the 1980s the Brits were doping themselves silly, and yet then in the 90s none of the Brits were doping when EPO was even legal and undetectable for a time.

In short, these guys on this forum (and there is a lot of you) who insist that British athletes from a largely amateur era were 'just as dirty' as athletes competing under Marxist doping regimes or Third World Kenyans or Moroccans who live in ultra-corrupt societies with little or no testing and EPO sold over the counter in high street pharmacies.....well you have some serious psychological issues.

Reported for excessive factuality (RFEF)

Coevett wrote:

1/ He was fast. Freaking fast. And white. Kenyans are genetically superior to white hobby joggers and yet only 2 Kenyans in nearly 40 years have ran faster.

In short, these guys on this forum (and there is a lot of you) who insist that British athletes from a largely amateur era were 'just as dirty' as athletes competing under Marxist doping regimes or Third World Kenyans or Moroccans who live in ultra-corrupt societies with little or no testing and EPO sold over the counter in high street pharmacies.....well you have some serious psychological issues.

Wow. LetsRun is hosting refugees from stormfront now?

El Keniano wrote:

Coevett wrote:

1/ He was fast. Freaking fast. And white. Kenyans are genetically superior to white hobby joggers and yet only 2 Kenyans in nearly 40 years have ran faster.

In short, these guys on this forum (and there is a lot of you) who insist that British athletes from a largely amateur era were 'just as dirty' as athletes competing under Marxist doping regimes or Third World Kenyans or Moroccans who live in ultra-corrupt societies with little or no testing and EPO sold over the counter in high street pharmacies.....well you have some serious psychological issues.

Wow. LetsRun is hosting refugees from stormfront now?

So a white person denying that white runners are genetically inferior to Africans is a 'Stormfront' refugee?

Suck it up snowflake, the more you BLM fascists slander as rasheest every white person for denying his inferority, the more you're going to create a genuine right wing nightmare down the road.

Why haven't you been banned yet for your constant race baiting?

At least the child rapist Konchellah never won Olympic gold, otherwise no doubt you'd be shouting that his was the greatest ever performance and calling anyone who disagreed a racist whitey imperialist.

Do we have an eye witness regarding Coe? No, not yet. Coe was up to something illegal &/or unethical to get sick they way he was sick in 1982 & 1983. You are probably near his age. Being a Brit Coevett, you have heard way more near concrete facts regarding Coe being dirty than us an the other side of the Atlantic. Why do you have disdain for Kenyans, Coevett? Explain yourself thoroughly. Your comments regarding white Brits are without merit. People do not make statements about Ovett being dirty. People make rational statements about Coe being dirty. You believe Coe is dirty too Coevett. Don't give me that garbage about Coe never failing a drug test. That's like stating Steve Bannon (a political operator in US) never drinks because he's never been convicted of a DUI.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Ovett's last lap clearly demonstrated that he was capable of running faster than Junatoreno's 76 time.

Even Nick Symmonds did that, but do we call him the WORLD RECORD HOLDER, I think not.

Ovett may have been capable of a real WR but all he delivered was a NICE TRY.

We did call Ovett the world record holder at 1500m, mile and 2 miles though, added to his Olympic Gold at 800m there is no comparison to Nick Symonds. He could have even beat him in the beer mile!

longjack wrote:

ya, ovett might have been in 142 shape in moscow. which explains straight up why he won.

ovett had 21x 200m speed with 330 1500, gives you the 142. and he beat rono in the 2 mile.

so in a way, ovett under performed,.... not over performed in that moscow 800m.

while ovett never got his act together for a fast 800, similarly coe never quite got it together for championships,

but really running second to two all time greats, is that so unusual???

meanwhile coe never perfected the 1500 either.

both guys should have times much faster than moe, obviously,

meanwhile moe is a 1500 runner in secret.....

I don't think Ovett ever went for a fast 800m time in his entire career (as he eventually did regularly with the 1500/Mile). I dont think he ever made any attempt on Coe's first WR and after the 1:41.73 he knew it was almost certainly beyond him. That and the fact that the level of competition was not as good (outside of major championships) and he didn't face off against Coe in the circuit means he only had a handful of races where he was forced to run fast, Prague 1978 being one, and Moscow 80 being another. Unfortunately it was such a slow first lap in Moscow, but the 50.5 indicates that his PB of 1:44 is a complete joke as a reflection of his talent.

Coevett wrote:

[quote]longjack wrote:

while ovett never got his act together for a fast 800, similarly coe never quite got it together for championships,

but really running second to two all time greats, is that so unusual???

.

Yeah, people who diss Coe's championship performances are a little unfair, and they forget that the World Cup back then (which Coe won with ease twice) was seen as the embryonic version of the World Championships.

Between 1979 and 81 he was way beyond anybody else on the planet time wise, but he and Ovett both knew that the latter was really a 1:42 guy if needed, so not such a huge chasm, at least not in 1980.

1982 he was clearly ill in the European final, and in 84 coming back from a long period of ill health and absence he did well to get a silver in the 800m. I do think he would have beaten Cruz in his 81 form and it would have looked just like Cram vs Cruz in the 1985 race.

If Ovett hadn't had his virus in LA in 84 I think he would have been in the mix for medals with a 1:43. It's incredible that he ran sub 1:45 (one of his best ever times) in the semi-finals when he was in such a bad state.

You're always flapping about those Brits...Joaquim Cruz be da man! ?

ukathleticscoach wrote:So according to Ventolin Ereng jogging along the sprinting in the home straight was better than someone dropping 50xx in the 2nd lap!

utterly clueless

what part of 1'43.4 win when 1 from dead-fuucking last at 400 you not comprehend ???

~ 2s quicker win than ovett !!!

ukathleticscoach wrote:Also interesting that Ventolin lists all these guys eg could have won in 80 completely ignoring the fact that Coe & Ovett dominated middle distances in the late 70's early 80's

The only hope their rivals had was to catch them on an off day

utter nonsense

what part of Maree hammering ovett 3'48.8 v 3'50.2 in rieti-'81 you not comprehend ???

ukathleticscoach wrote:I said middle distances but sticking to the 800m one Olympic Gold two silvers and a world record that lasted from 1979-1997

Coe smashed the world record by 1 3/4 seconds. Funny how records are so important on here when it comes to Farah but not some much when it doesn't suit..

laughable

coe's 800m superiority lasted 5y which anyone with a clue about the sport watching it intensely back then knew when they saw this genuine auto-timed run on a proper 8-laner on known world renowned track, run after a virtually solo-2'14, brace of poorly run low 1'42s in few days before crumbling his legs

calculo wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:So according to Ventolin Ereng jogging along the sprinting in the home straight was better than someone dropping 50xx in the 2nd lap!

utterly clueless

what part of 1'43.4 win when 1 from dead-fuucking last at 400 you not comprehend ???

~ 2s quicker win than ovett !!!

What part of perfect paced and drafted trip do you not comprehend? Ereng had that. Ovett engaged in two cage matches en route, both of which he won.

Wow! Some trolls (and by that I mean one, maybe 2 in particular)are desperately posting under a variety of names that never seem to appear again! Strange that.

Coevett's summary of these athlete's careers is pretty much spot on, whereas yours is the typical gutter press rumour mongering of someone without any evidence at all.

As you correctly pointed out, there is no eyewitness regarding Coe doing anything unethical. The addition of 'not yet' is pathetic. He was at his peak almost 40 years ago. He had a long career and was helped by several coaches over the course of that career: Coe snr, Frank Horwill, George Gandy, Dave Martin, Joe Newton, etc. Most of these are highly respected within the sport and would have some inkling if he had doped. He has also had a political career with a party that is not known for its popularity in the UK. If there was any dirt to be found concerning his athletic career, it would have been uncovered by now.

You do realise that by stating, 'Coe WAS up to something illegal...' you are stating it as a fact! This is libellous without any evidence, and I'm sure the IAAF would be interested to who you are and know that you can prove this fact. The only fact is that he never tested positive, despite being one of the most tested athletes of the era.

Coe being ill in 1982 and 1983 with glandular fever and then toxoplasmosis is no evidence whatsoever that he was blood doping. He was still able to run 1:43/3:35 in those years when ill, which reinforces his natural ability. Jim Ryun was ill on and off from 1968 for the rest of his career, also with glandular fever, and his performances at times were dire. Surely for someone with your mentality and outlook, you must also believe that Ryun too was up to something illegal? That his illness also indicates rampant and continuous doping/unethical procedures!?

You state, 'People make rational statements about Coe being dirty'. No, they are not rational people who do this. Rational people would suggest this as a possibility, not a fact, and then offer some semblance of evidence to give credence to their opinion. You fail to do any of this, because you are a troll who knows nothing.

The suggestion that every rational person believes Ovett to be clean and Coe to be dirty, as well as trying to be purposely divisive (which I'm sure Covett is intelligent enough to see through) is also nonsense, and reinforces the fact (yes, this is a fact) that you know nothing about this period of the sport. While in no way trying to accuse Ovett, who I am as confident of being clean as it is possible to be, of doping, it would be a lot easier for him to have doped than Coe, considering the head honcho of European athletics at the time, Andy Norman, was not only the person who decided who ran where, and who selected those athletes to be tested at (certainly every British) meets, hence Coe was almost always chosen, but he also happened to be Ovett's agent and was the best man at Steve's wedding. If there was ever a scenario created for one athlete to get away with cheating and another to be caught or set up, then this was it.

calculo wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:I said middle distances but sticking to the 800m one Olympic Gold two silvers and a world record that lasted from 1979-1997

Coe smashed the world record by 1 3/4 seconds. Funny how records are so important on here when it comes to Farah but not some much when it doesn't suit..

laughable

coe's 800m superiority lasted 5y which anyone with a clue about the sport watching it intensely back then knew when they saw this genuine auto-timed run on a proper 8-laner on known world renowned track, run after a virtually solo-2'14, brace of poorly run low 1'42s in few days before crumbling his legs

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tHUPdjnnw

No, anyone with a clue about the sport that running a 1:42.3 in 79 with a third 200m of 24.6, after going through 400 in 50.8, was capable of 1:41 then. Reinforced by a 1:41.7 in early June 81, after running 2m wide, these people with a clue also realised Coe was more of a 1:41 flat man if he'd had the pacing later in the 81 season when at a peak.

The same people with a clue, also knowing (from overwhelming evidence from dozens of other athletes), that a few runs close together brings an elite to a peak, would also have seen Cruz afforded every help possible to break Coe's record at the sharp end of the 84 season, and fail.

Coe was World ranked #1 over 800m in 1979, and for the last time in 1986, which is 8 seasons. So his position at the top of 800m running, while not consistent over the entire duration, did last 8 seasons, not 5.

Er... wrote:

Peter Coe apparently believed going into the final that Seb "would have to run so badly" to lose the race. At a press conference afterwards he supposedly covered his mic when Seb came in so he could lean over to his son and say, "You ran like an idiot."

I don't ever recall seeing those two shoves by Ovett on the first backstretch before. The second one he appears to have gone looking for.

Actually, those journalists present at the post race interview actually confirmed that 'idiot' was the censored replacement for what he really said, which was, "You ran like a c**t", not very pleasant.

+1. I agree with practically all of this.

Ovett was certainly capable of sub 1:43 in the right race, but while both Coe & Ovett had very similar 1500 pbs, and both were capable of around 3:28 in perfect conditions, by 1980, Ovett didn't have the 400 pace of Coe. The year before both ran a few 400 relay legs, and while Ovett's fastest was 46.8, Coe's was 45.5. There was at least a second between them over 400m, and it would have been the same over 800m in 1980.

Ovett's win in Moscow was a stunning performance and his 50.5 second lap remains the fastest 2nd 400m in Olympic history, but Coe's effort of 50.7 running about 7m wide, showed that he didn't give himself a chance in that final.