Webb: 20 x 400m w. final 400m in 50.1

Lada wrote:

Semaphore Slim wrote:

If that's overtraining, I wish more professional runners would overtrain so we could see records instead of times that are slower than high school boys (e.g. Rio 1500m)

I doubt too many high school boys would have won the Rio 1500.

If a championship is not won in a World Record they should not award medals.

Alan Webb is a middle-distance runner. Centrogansta is a jog 'n sprinter with a much better head of hair since he doesn't have astronomical testosterone levels like Webb did in his late teens and early twenties.

Crazy coaching wrote:

Libertarian vegan wrote:

This explains a lot...

Yes. It explains literary why he run himself down in training.

No it explains that he was one massive drug cheat, without the dope he was rubbish.

I think there are times when 20 x 400 at 3k pace down to 1500 pace is the perfect workout for that athlete at that stage in his or her progression (I think if you look at Renato Canova's workouts for elite 1500 runners, you'll find similar workouts). There are other times when 8 x 1000 at 5k pace down to 3k pace is ideal. And other times when 6 x 400 at 800 pace is best for that athlete at that time in the season. But I generally can't look at 1 workout in the abstract and say that's not a productive workout. It's more about finding the right balance of a range of speeds and intensities. And, generally speaking, I also can't look at just 1 workout and declare the athlete is over training (there may be exceptions).

Coacherman wrote:

I think there are times when 20 x 400 at 3k pace down to 1500 pace is the perfect workout for that athlete at that stage in his or her progression (I think if you look at Renato Canova's workouts for elite 1500 runners, you'll find similar workouts). There are other times when 8 x 1000 at 5k pace down to 3k pace is ideal. And other times when 6 x 400 at 800 pace is best for that athlete at that time in the season. But I generally can't look at 1 workout in the abstract and say that's not a productive workout. It's more about finding the right balance of a range of speeds and intensities. And, generally speaking, I also can't look at just 1 workout and declare the athlete is over training (there may be exceptions).

What's this "nuance" and "context" crap? Get with the program--this is LRC!

Generating *one* workout schedule that is applicable to all runners and then staying with it through thick and thin, regardless of a person's innate abilities or training background--now *that* is coaching!

If the workout stated that Webb ran 20x400m at 58sec with increasing rest would you be blown away? If it went into detail that it was 5 sets of 4x400m w/3min rest between sets and 60-120sec increasing rest between intervals (for a dude running 3:40 for 1500m casually that season) would it rock your world?

Webb did a very impressive workout, but I wouldn't say it qualifies as "the most famous" (implying it is arguably the greatest). His entire workout averaged 58sec; his first 16 reps averaged 59sec. The first half, considering the rest, was pretty mellow for him. Combined together with the ramped-up second half, it was a great workout, but nothing truly insane.

I'm not sure if they're better, but I've always been really impressed by some of Kennedy's workouts from the late 90s are more impressive:

1) 1998: 1600-1200-800-400 step down w/3min jog between: 3:57, 2:56, 1:55, and 55

2) 1996: 12x 400m (not 20...), but consistent short rest:

4*400m (:59.6, :59.2, :58.1, :59.7)(:55) (3:00)

4*400m (:59.6, :59.4, :59.1, :58.1)(:55) (3:00)

4*400m (:59.0, :58.8, ;59.5, :58.1)(:55)

Or to compare Webb's pinnacle of fitness to Bekele in his prime:

8 each, alternating: 400 in 52-54, 200 in 24-25) w/ 90sec-2min rest in between. Lots of rest, but crazy fast. Fast at a level wayyy beyond that of the "miler" Webb.

I'm sure Rupp has dropped some crazy stuff like this that we don't know about.

If you took set 5 as a modified Kosmin test, with recovery times of 3 x 2 minutes instead of 3, 2 and 1 minute, and assuming he maintained the pace of each rep for a full minute, Webb would have made it 1756 meters, predicting (backed up by a mountain of data kept by the Soviets) a 3:36 1500. Conservatively slow his last rep down to a 52 and he still makes it 1739m for a 3:39.

To do that after 4 sets of course indicates something much faster, but I don't think I would be surprised to see any ~3:30 performer able to do the same.

Geb's training and Morceli's were way more advanced.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~peterg1/run/aths.html

Star wrote:

He could have probably run a 3:46 mile with that fitness.

{I fixed your grammar Star.}

Webb averaged about 59.xx for total workout. A tough workout but the workout does not tell me Webb will race 3:46 for a mile. Add 8 or 9 seconds. Webb will not race sub-3:54 for a mile. Webb won't race sub-3:37 for 1500m.

58.1 average

Webb seemed to like to blast the last rep of a lot of workouts. It's a good confidence booster once in a while but it is also good to save those efforts for when it counts, especially when you have a long season ahead.

4x400 (60 sec rest) 62.6, 61.4, 60.1, 57.6

3 minutes

4x400 (60s rest) 60.8, 60.7, 58.6, 58.9

3 minutes

4x400 (90 seconds rest) 59.4, 58.7, 58.0, 57.1

3 minutes

4x400 (1:45 rest) 57.9, 57.2, 57.4, 56.6

3 minutes

4x400 (2:00 rest) 57.0, 56.5, 55.6, 50.1

Cram would do something like 10-12 by 400 or 440 in 57 with 60 seconds rest and many milers of that era would do reps faster than 57. But to close 17-20 in 57, 56.5, 55.6, and then a 50.1, half a second faster than Centro closed a 3:50 1500m, is where you know that this is a guy who could have run 3:29 or better in a race with pacers like Monaco.

I just eye balled the data and stated ABOUT 59 seconds. It took you 5 1/2 hours to calculate 58.1 seconds a lap. 58.1 is close to 59 my friend.

Here's an example of Steve Scott at his peak:

8/3: AM 5mi jog PM@ SLO 2x(5x400) 400j, 400w between sets. Very good. 55.4, 56.8, 57.1, 56.4, 55.8, 55.1, 56.8, 56.2, 55.8, 52.8. (10mi)

He would often close workouts in 51-52, but most of them I saw just now would mix 200s, 300s, 400s, and 800s, or do 500s, so there weren't too many strictly comparable workouts. You can see that in the above 10x400 on 400j, probably under 2:00, he was going faster than almost all of Webb's reps, but Webb didn't even start going that fast until he had done 10-12 and he closed quite a bit faster. I take from this both that Scott could have run 3:29 and that Webb didn't realize his potential in 2007 because of the lack of a paced Monaco race at the right time.

Check your math Star! wrote:

I just eye balled the data and stated ABOUT 59 seconds. It took you 5 1/2 hours to calculate 58.1 seconds a lap. 58.1 is close to 59 my friend.

5 1/2 minutes. I just wanted accuracy not a guess. If you're going to be pedantic, you have to do more work than that.