1 hour in the weight room. Give me a good routine!

otter wrote:

I don't allow my XC runners to go to the gym unless I am with them. They always make friends with some beach buf knucklehead and do cut down sets to build muscle mass but not strength.

They will argue to me about this like I don't know what I'm talking about. This is not even good for my sprinters.

Every pound you put on your body you have to fight vertical forces to support. Upper body weight I the death of runners. Even sprinters. Arm movements can not lift the body mass you produce in the weight room against gravity. That's a fact.

Almost nobody is lifting correctly in regards to the needs of runners.

Agree, which is why runners should focus on improving strength, power, and explosiveness without increasing size. Lift without increasing size, that’s the goal.

Minimal volume, higher intensity, higher speed of contraction.

Alan

Yes of course, but I'm remembering that you've said the same thing that you will struggle or find that impossible (?) if you even purposefully try to build muscle, if you train distance running hard, or something like that. The knowledge about strength training for runners has improved since Coe, but referring again to my point; is that even possible, for a distance runner, to build that much of muscle that'll be harmful to your running?

U.N.O. wrote:

Yes of course, but I'm remembering that you've said the same thing that you will struggle or find that impossible (?) if you even purposefully try to build muscle, if you train distance running hard, or something like that. The knowledge about strength training for runners has improved since Coe, but referring again to my point; is that even possible, for a distance runner, to build that much of muscle that'll be harmful to your running?

You can build the wrong muscles. A 4 pound gain of weight in your upper body might look good but it won't help you run a better 5k. Agin, to paraphrase Gary Winkler US runners are lifting themselves out of medal contention.

coach wrote:

You can build the wrong muscles. A 4 pound gain of weight in your upper body might look good but it won't help you run a better 5k. Agin, to paraphrase Gary Winkler US runners are lifting themselves out of medal contention.

You're right, but I meant lower body work, done with legs that are constantly in a glycogen depleted state, more or less. I can't understand who does the upper body work to "look better" if the goal is to get faster as a distance runner. Which usually is the case I would think.

Most weight lifters focus on sarcoplasmic muscle hypertrophy. From what you just said that's hard to do for a distance runner. So when you lift with high reps you've basically made yourself tired and have accomplished nothing.

So why not go to the gym and lift heavy with fewer reps with the goal of increasing myofibrils? Whenever any of my athletes go to the gym the overwhelming opinion for distance runners in particular is to do many repetitions. This does nothing for them other than make them tired doing an exercise that is less beneficial than running itself.

Oh, and yes some distance runners will gain weight from lifting the wrong way.

U.N.O. wrote:

coach wrote:

You can build the wrong muscles. A 4 pound gain of weight in your upper body might look good but it won't help you run a better 5k. Agin, to paraphrase Gary Winkler US runners are lifting themselves out of medal contention.

You're right, but I meant lower body work, done with legs that are constantly in a glycogen depleted state, more or less. I can't understand who does the upper body work to "look better" if the goal is to get faster as a distance runner. Which usually is the case I would think.

Ok find me someone running an hour a day, lifting only 2x week total body, eating normally (not massive calories or protein), has a typical runners frame, who is gaining muscle? You can’t find that person because it’s really not possible.

There’s are guys in the gym killing it and can’t gain a pound but somehow someone with poor hypertrophy genetics and doing minimal strength work is gonna end up like the Hulk?

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

U.N.O. wrote:

You're right, but I meant lower body work, done with legs that are constantly in a glycogen depleted state, more or less. I can't understand who does the upper body work to "look better" if the goal is to get faster as a distance runner. Which usually is the case I would think.

Ok find me someone running an hour a day, lifting only 2x week total body, eating normally (not massive calories or protein), has a typical runners frame, who is gaining muscle? You can’t find that person because it’s really not possible.

There’s are guys in the gym killing it and can’t gain a pound but somehow someone with poor hypertrophy genetics and doing minimal strength work is gonna end up like the Hulk?

Alan

Define 'eating normally'. That can be very different for everyone who runs / works out a lot.

I'd always come into school every fall weighing around 145lbs. I'd often have access to more food at school so I would eat more, but I also felt much better and stronger eating this amount. ALways felt weak and tired over the summers. I would lift over the summer and throughout school, but moreso at school, and I would always gain weight. Often finishing the season somewhere between 155-160lbs at my heaviest, but I was also always at my fastest at the end of season.

I agree with you on basically every facet when it comes to lifting as a distance runner, but I don't think it is very hard to gain weight while running as long as you're eating enough to fuel your body and not starve yourself. Maybe I'm more genetically inclined to gain weight via lifting than others? I'm not sure. Just giving my two cents from experience.

You didn’t gain 10-15lbs of muscle over the season only to lose it over the summer. You just got fat and/or bloated up quite a bit.

Gains and loses in muscle mass just don’t happen that way.

Alan

Gettin Swolle wrote:

Recently started doing heavy weight sessions in the afternoons of my workout days. Many pro runners I’ve researched tend to say they do about 45 minutes to an hour. Since I’m only doing it 3 times a week, I’d like to work the whole body with each session (arms, core, and legs). What’s a good routine to get the best bang for my buck?

Mile 4:38

5k 15:30

Half 1:10

Hey Babe , just work on yo tits and yo ass .

And down a couple of a pints of Ben and Jerry's a day .

Not over the season, but over a period of 9 months, which is clearly doable. Most of which was muscle, some probably fat but my BF% is pretty dang low so it’s hard to tell for sure. Was still much faster from 200m-5k at my heaviest weights.

Anyways, you didn’t answer my original question.

Runningart2004 wrote:

waltertompatton wrote:

Leave.

Lydiard was against any upper body wt. training and did not have his charges lift except in the absence of hills.

Coaches in most other sports, including football, used to be against weight lifting as well. Weight lifting has benefits for runners.

Alan

I think you misunderstood my post~~~Lydiard did use weights for the lower body in the absence of having hill. Clearly extra upper body weight will not help any runner 1500 meters and above. Even for the 400/800 events you have to be careful. Take a look at David Rudisha. He is no Arnold Swartzeneggar!

It's a hard fact for runners to commit themselves to but never the less it is true.

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

You didn’t gain 10-15lbs of muscle over the season only to lose it over the summer. You just got fat and/or bloated up quite a bit.

Gains and loses in muscle mass just don’t happen that way.

Alan

Not over the season, but over a period of 9 months, which is clearly doable. Most of which was muscle, some probably fat but my BF% is pretty dang low so it’s hard to tell for sure. Was still much faster from 200m-5k at my heaviest weights.

Anyways, you didn’t answer my original question.

How do you know this was mostly muscle? Tested? If not then you’re just guessing.

So you gained 10-15lbs of mostly muscle over 9mo then lost it over 3mo? Unless you were bed ridden it’s very hard to lose muscle. I think you just gained mostly water and glycogen and fat.

Not sure what your original question was.

Still you ran faster so it doesn’t matter.

Alan

waltertompatton wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Coaches in most other sports, including football, used to be against weight lifting as well. Weight lifting has benefits for runners.

Alan

I think you misunderstood my post~~~Lydiard did use weights for the lower body in the absence of having hill. Clearly extra upper body weight will not help any runner 1500 meters and above. Even for the 400/800 events you have to be careful. Take a look at David Rudisha. He is no Arnold Swartzeneggar!

It's a hard fact for runners to commit themselves to but never the less it is true.

You’re assuming you’ll gain upper body mass with lifting. As a competitive runner you won’t as long as you meet the criteria I mentioned before.

Alan

waltertompatton wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Coaches in most other sports, including football, used to be against weight lifting as well. Weight lifting has benefits for runners.

Alan

I think you misunderstood my post~~~Lydiard did use weights for the lower body in the absence of having hill. Clearly extra upper body weight will not help any runner 1500 meters and above. Even for the 400/800 events you have to be careful. Take a look at David Rudisha. He is no Arnold Swartzeneggar!

It's a hard fact for runners to commit themselves to but never the less it is true.

One random study on collegiate runners.

40 runners, no changes in body composition with increased strength and improvement in running economy.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

waltertompatton wrote:

I think you misunderstood my post~~~Lydiard did use weights for the lower body in the absence of having hill. Clearly extra upper body weight will not help any runner 1500 meters and above. Even for the 400/800 events you have to be careful. Take a look at David Rudisha. He is no Arnold Swartzeneggar!

It's a hard fact for runners to commit themselves to but never the less it is true.

One random study on collegiate runners.

40 runners, no changes in body composition with increased strength and improvement in running economy.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0850/4a39efd7f54203c4e2e3611195adb7d1727e.pdf

Alan

Reference Max King on MotivRunning IG's story yesterday (12/21) dude's a world class runner in both the road and ultra scene, and he preached the importance of strength training. Kettlebells and Trapbar deadlifts are his favorite moves for runners. This is what some of us are saying in this thread. Functional strength to keep the core and explosive running muscles in tact. Definitely would never advise runners to do 5x12 bench press variations, followed with cable crossovers and machine assisted upper body moves. I'd agree, that is doing nothing for your athletic prowess. Most of you against strength training have that approach locked in your minds though.