3:28 man, Elijah Manangoi, can run a sub 46 400m

Maybe not sub-46, but Kiprop can run 46-high at worst

They hold a stopwatch, not a sundial.

Fast 1500 runners don't necessarily have superior stamina.

These are fast guys with only respectable stamina.

Any Kenyan who can split a 45 is already in the 800.

Why would they bother with a 4 x 400 relay?

Nah, 48s flat would be the best for Kiprop. But I bet Ventolin will be along here soon claiming that he can do 45s.

eh ???

is this a joke ???

Kenyans are huge 400 performers if anyone ever bothers to train them with some serious gym work

you do know that the NR is Kitur's 44.18 all the way back in '92 on grandest of all stages, the '92 games !!!

no altitude, no HT BS but genuine 44.18 on uncontestable track

that time is still way quicker than the euro record of 44.33 & if Kenyan sprinting hadn't died a death from early-'90s because of foreign managers not interested in helping/training sprinters, only wanting 800/1500/5k/10k+, especially latter end for multiple road race opportunities with plenty of prize money, it wouda been expected there wouda been plenty of Kenyan 43+ guys in 25y of the sport like have sprung up from south africa, botswana, grenada, bahamas, jamaica & saudi arabia

with some slight resurgence in past coupla year, they won 400H WC in '15 with 47.79 & a different guy won silver in rio with 47.78 !

those times are quicker than any non-american has run since '13 !

as for 400 flat, Korir, a nothing 400 guy when in Kenya, gets recruited to texas does lotta weight-training & runs 44.53 !!

even more impressive, he runs 43.34R, which is 4th fastest auto time relay leg ever :

- MJ - 42.94

- wariner - 43.10

- butch - 43.23

- Korir - 43.34

here is iphone clip of that run :

fastest relay run in 10y !!!

who says Kenyans can't run 400 when they get training for it ???

as for Mandingo, learn to read :

he was a poorly trained as unknown 20y ole by coach who really has no clue about training sprinters, when running 47.33 & 46.5

that 46.5 was a major race as Kenyan Championships :

from 4y on from just raw kid of 20y to now 24y with much more professional & specific 1-on-1 coaching which big $$$ that a WC silver in 15 brought, it woud be absolutely expected he coud still run 46.0/46.5

as for Kipruto, he never claimed 46+ speed but 47+, but 46+ woud be entirely expected from this workout, which you can decry & tell us your own clocking for it when he was training with a 1'42.8 guy who kicked in "WR" kick-in-fast-800 of 12.2 when running it on top of some serious wide running on bends

as for Asbel, i have never read of him claiming 46+ speed but i have no doubt he had this when running 3'26.6 & even when just kid of 19y he ran 1'43.0 thumping Big-Man who ran 1'42.01 later in year & Asbel couda run 1'41-high this day if not for wide-running on bends, running cautiously tracking kaki who was the 800 king of that brief era, instead of which he shouda charged off at bell to drop kaki & shocked when Big-Man charged past him on back-straight hampering him, he still finished in home-stretch like a runaway rhino !!!

he looked by far the best 800 guy in race, better than kaki a 1'42.6 guy & thrashing Big-Man who ran 1'42.01 later in season, but Asbel ran tactically rubbish race & he was still 19y !!!

any guy who can finish a fast 800 that fast with that much wide-running & getting boxed in at 600 has definite claim to 46+ speed at the time

i have never heard cheserek claim 46+ speed

that is clearly wrong

find some source

because to excel &run to their potential, they need a targeted quality lower tier iaaf race, such as level -2, not diamond league where they get hustled by elite guys who charge off, box them in, force them to run wide, generally wreck their rhythm & most of these "elites" have nowhere near the ability over the distance but have cudgeled a few medals to get to elite status - see kzscot who has ancient 1'43.3pb from '11 but keeps winning silvers albeit his sb this year was pathetic 1'44.84 !!!???

that sb of kzscot shoudn't even have got him into a diamond league race but he came away with silver this year !!!

to get a time consumate with their intermdiate distance potential, they need lower tier iaaf race such as good weather run in ostrava, rieti, luzern or somesuch with just 1 or 2 quality pacers & a handful of lower tier guys who won't charge off, boxing them & hampering them, forcing them wide, etc

no interest

there is no money in it & you woudn't get the specific squad training beforehand as with american/carib/euro teams

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Nah, 48s flat would be the best for Kiprop

utter nonsense

it really is shocking how absolutely clueless you are about the sport

you really know nothing

go see doha 800 in '09 when he crushed the Big-Man who later went 1'42.01 in year & wouda thumped kaki if he hadn't had to run so much wide & got boxed in before 600

his last 100, from comparing with actual 100 that day was 12.4/12.5 !!! which at time was fastest last 100 ever run in a fast 800 race !!!

any guy who can finish that fast had fantastic 400 speed that

But I bet Ventolin will be along here soon claiming that he can do 45s

no idea about Ventolin, but i'm calculo & Asbel's doha 800 at 18y is consistent with a guy who had 46+ speed that day

calculo wrote:Asbel's doha 800 at 18y

correction : 19y

calculo wrote:

that 46.5 was a major race as Kenyan Championships :

Rubbish! So major that they didn't have FA timing and used hand times!?

46.5 ht is more like 46.7 FAT.

It was at 1800m altitude of Nairobi, so that brings it up to more like 47.0

The 46.5 is not listed as a valid time on any lists for that year. His official pb is 47.33

calculo wrote:

as for Kipruto, he never claimed 46+ speed but 47+, but 46+ woud be entirely expected from this workout, which you can decry & tell us your own clocking for it when he was training with a 1'42.8 guy who kicked in "WR" kick-in-fast-800 of 12.2 when running it on top of some serious wide running on bends

Kipketer ran a 12.3 last 100m and his last 200m was 25.3 in Lausanne. He runs 2m wide on last bend, meaning it was worth 25.0.

He is above the 90m line in 1:31.6 (clock has a residual error of 0.1sec) , meaning his last 90m was 11.1, which = 12.33 100m speed.

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Nah, 48s flat would be the best for Kiprop

utter nonsense

it really is shocking how absolutely clueless you are about the sport

you really know nothing

go see doha 800 in '09 when he crushed the Big-Man who later went 1'42.01 in year & wouda thumped kaki if he hadn't had to run so much wide & got boxed in before 600

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6586XtsCZck

his last 100, from comparing with actual 100 that day was 12.4/12.5 !!! which at time was fastest last 100 ever run in a fast 800 race !!!

Absolutely clueless, but not surprising from the man who couldn't work out the start of the 1500m race in Marseilles a few years ago!

The 100m mark is before the point on the infield where the tarmac changes to grass, and before the read stadium clock.

You can see it clearly on the video link below. 1min 15 sec into the video.

You can also see the 90m lines marked a couple of secs later.

Kiprop is on the 90m from home line at 1:31.4 of the race.

Kaki crosses the line with the onscreen clock showing 1:43.0, so there is no time delay to the official time. Kiprop's time is 1:43.17, meaning he covered the last 90m in 11.77, which is 13.0/13.1 for the last 100m.

Nowhere near the nonsense 12.4/12.5 you made up.

Not a patch on Coe's 12.4 last 100m at the end of the European 800m in 86, where he ran 11m extra distance in a 1:44.5, meaning it was more like a 1:43.1 performance.

And whereas Kiprop's last 200m in Doha was 26.3, Coe's was 24.8, and as he ran 3m wide on that bend alone, it was equivalent to a 24.4 at the end of a 1:43.1. That's a 12.0 bend followed by a 12.4 last 100m.

The only finishing speed in a fast race (worth sub 1:44.0) since, that can compare is Kipketer's (Wilson) 24.7 last 200m in a 1:42.77 in 97. Every step of that run however was on the inside of lane 1.

There have been some storming 400 relay legs from Kenyan runners over the years. Who can forget Julius Sang's 43.5 anchor in the 1972 Olympic final? I can only find this footage taken by an amateur on the backstretch. I believe the anchor leg starts at 1:10 in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08geXf3JTxM

Here Renato talks about 800 guy Joseph Mutua (this post written in 2004 and Bungei didn't win Olympic 800 until 2008):

Regarding Mutua and Bungei, my opinion is that Mutua is more talented (he was able running in 43.9 last stage of 4x400 during World Military Ch. in 2002 !), but Bungei more mature under the point of view of training. Wilfred has a great personality, also during the race ; Joseph is more naif, and often does some mistake in tactic and in distribution of his energies.

At the moment, Mutua is already in better shape, because he used more speedworks in training. However, this year he tried to train with more volume, also if the percentage in comparison with Bungei is no more than 60%.

Bungei has the goal of World Indoor Ch, like Mutua, but expecially the goal of Olympics. After the indoor season, they will go directly to June (may be only Doha, on 12/5, but not yet in shape), using April and May for the most important basic training (aerobic power, short speed, strenght, general resistance).

Great finish from Coe in Euro 800 1986, no doubt, but he did not run an extra 11m. They're in lanes the first turn, he's in lane 1 for most of the 2nd turn, he's in lane 2 for the third turn, and he's in lane 2 and sometimes lane 1 in the fourth turn.

He jumps out to lane 3 for the last straight but that's actually not much extra on a straightaway.

6.8m extra for lap/lane. 1.7m/turn/lane. 1.7m extra for the third turn. Call it 1m for the fourth turn. 1/2m for the second turn.

Add 1m for back and forth. That's 4.2m extra. You're going to have to add a lot more speculatively to get even close to 11m.

Scratch that:

3.4m extra per turn, so I'll give you 8.4m extra for Coe's 86, and that's generous.

I always laugh when you distance joggers claim elite sprint times for your heroes.

zxcvxccvx wrote:

Great finish from Coe in Euro 800 1986, no doubt, but he did not run an extra 11m. They're in lanes the first turn, he's in lane 1 for most of the 2nd turn, he's in lane 2 for the third turn, and he's in lane 2 and sometimes lane 1 in the fourth turn.

He jumps out to lane 3 for the last straight but that's actually not much extra on a straightaway.

6.8m extra for lap/lane. 1.7m/turn/lane. 1.7m extra for the third turn. Call it 1m for the fourth turn. 1/2m for the second turn.

Add 1m for back and forth. That's 4.2m extra. You're going to have to add a lot more speculatively to get even close to 11m.

You're out of your depth.

If you run the entire lane on line between lane 1 & 2 that = 2.9m

If you run an entire bend 30cm into lane 2, that = 3.8m

If you run an entire bend in middle of lane 2 that = 4.8m

If you run an entire bend on line between lanes 1 & 2, that = 6.7m!

On the 2nd turn, from 200m, Coe is seen on outside of lane 1 in front on camera shot. As the camera angle changes to side on, Coe clearly moves further out and follows Cram, both running in lane 2.

At 34.3secs of the race, Coe is still clearly in lane 2. He then moves just into lane 1 again, albeit still wide, as he enters the straight.

On average, he runs the equivalent of the entire bend on the line between lanes 1 & 2. That = 2.9m

On the third bend, he enters it 30cm into lane 2. If he'd carried on at that same distance from the inside curb, that in itself would have been an extra 3.8m wide (see above). But he continues to move further and further away from the curb and wider still. By about 40m into the bend he is in the middle of lane 2, then he proceeds to move to the outer edge of lane 2 and actually goes into lane 3.

He clearly runs the entire bend in lane 2, most of it in the outer half of the lane, and some of it on the line with lane 3.

A conservative effort would be 5m, just for that one bend.

On the last bend Coe enters it in the middle of lane 2.

4 secs later he moves in to the very outside of lane 1, maybe 10cm inside the line. The camera then moves to a side on shot, but 3 secs later Coe clearly moves out and back onto the line with lane 2 by 1:26 of the race. By 1:29 he is clearly back in lane 2, and as he hits the 700m line (1:32.0 on screen clock) he is in the middle of lane 2. He crosses the line with torso on line at 1:44.4.

He runs 3m wide on that last bend. He is outside of the line between lanes 1 and 2 more than he is inside, on that last bend.

So he runs 2.9 + 5.0 + 3.0 = 10.9m. Which I rounded to 11m

(1:44.5 / 810.9m) x 800m = 1:43.1

Your 2 attempts at trying to analyse it both fall far short.

Deanouk wrote:

EDIT: -

If you run one entire bend on line between lane 1 & 2 that = 2.9m extra than if you had run 30cm from the curb in lane 1.

If you run an entire bend 30cm into lane 2 that = 3.8m extra.

If you run an entire bend in middle of lane 2 that = 4.8m extra distance.

If you run an entire bend on line between lanes 2 & 3, that = 6.7m extra!

Another meaningless post entirely full of nonsense.

So Kiprop can run 1:43.1 no surprises there. Perhaps he could go about 1:42.7 running a perfect race. But I quote in absolutes and on youtube there is a 400m race of Kiprop running 49s-low hand timed at home (though somebody claimed 48.5). Now he could take 1s off for the dirt track, heck even 1.5s because it is really bumpy but at that altitude he gains between 0.45-0.9s, then add 0.2s for hand timed, which is gives us 48.2-48.7s at sea level. He simply lacks muscle to sprint any quicker. The fact that he can take this speed and run potentially 1:42-high shouldn't be a surprise, he is on the Fancy bears list of likely dopers and his management team is the Rosas.

I very much doubt Kiprop could go sub-47 standing start. Just not that kind of runner.

Why do they allow calculo to screw up threads? It's pretty ridiculous. I need a "hide" button for his posts.

SmittyWerbenJager wrote:

If it is true then surely you have to ask why these guys aren’t dropping world records left and right, given the general preference for distance.

Why would you have to ask why they aren't dropping world records left and right? The answer is literally right there - both 46 and 3:28 are slower than the world records. So how could they be breaking the world records left and right?