Core / General Strength Training?

Alan, your advice as usual is very good, however do runners and non strength athletes really need back squats? Split squats and goblet squats are safer.

You need a good base of body weight work before moving to weights, 2-3 months if done frequently. Single leg movements are more specific and safer than back squats. Back squats demands heavier loads to be as effective, and without a good technique and strong core muscles, don't do it. You gain more with less injury risk by just staying with lunges, split squats, step-ups, even pistol squats without weights. These all improves your balance and hip area strength a lot better than traditional squats. You'll have less leaks of force sideways while running.

Progression of strength training

1. General strength

-Circuit training for beginners / no weight training background

-Many exercises (~10-12), 2-3 circuits, ~15-30 repetitions per set

-Rest 30-60sec between sets, 2-3min between circuits

-Alternate muscle groups

-Body weight only for beginners and juniors, 8-12weeks or longer

-Load ~40-60% of maximum on weights, 6-12 repetitions per set, 2-3 sets, 1-2min rests

-Body weight only for beginners and juniors, 8-12weeks or longer

-Can be done after sprints etc.

2. Maximal strength

-Less exercises

-6-12 weeks

-Load ~70-85% of maximum

-4-6 repetitions per set, ~3 sets, ~3min rest

-Can be done after sprints etc.

3. Power/muscular endurance

Convert the maximal strength to power (middle distance) or muscular endurance (long distance). Power and muscular endurance are related to the maximal strength

Power:

-4-8 weeks

-Few exercises

-Load ~20-50% of maximum

-Up to ~10 repetitions done as fast as you safely can (while maintaining a good technique), ~3sets, ~3min rests

-Can be done after sprints etc.

-Maintain the maximal strength

Muscular endurance:

-4-8 weeks

-Few exercises done in circuits

-Load ~20-40% of maximum, ~15-30 reps per set, 3-5 circuits

-Rest 30-45sec between sets, 2-3 min between circuits

-Can be done after sprints etc.

-Maintain the maximal strength

munch munch crunch crunhc what's that sound... me eating iron all day!!! Cut your running down to 3 or 4 miles a day and do leg work in the gym to get faster and stronger!! YOu should squat low enough you leave a stain on the floor.

Remember, big legs = big poossy!

There is nothing inherently unsafe about back squats or any exercise done correctly. Curiously it’s a high volume of work, be it running or pushups or squats or anything, which is more unsafe as that tends to lead to overuse injuries.

Months of bodyweight work is not needed before loaded work. Just do a month of lightly loaded work short of failure before hitting anything heavy.

Alan

Solution to the “oh my god you’ll blow your back out!!”...

Do front squats. It’s a better more athletic movement anyway.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Months of bodyweight work is not needed before loaded work.

But it also won't harm you if you play it safe. Bones, joints etc. strengthens slower than the muscles. Even just for the muscles ~6 weeks is needed to fully stabilize.

U.N.O. wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Months of bodyweight work is not needed before loaded work.

But it also won't harm you if you play it safe. Bones, joints etc. strengthens slower than the muscles. Even just for the muscles ~6 weeks is needed to fully stabilize.

In my experience training hundreds of people it’s just not necessary.

It’s also more dangerous to do lots and lots of reps of a bodyweight circuit vs using loaded exercises. Chronic injuries such as tendinitis develop by overuse.

Do 200 push-ups every other day and you have a far greater chance of developing some tendinitis or slight impingement in the shoulder vs doing 3 sets of 5-10 loaded Bench every other day.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

U.N.O. wrote:

But it also won't harm you if you play it safe. Bones, joints etc. strengthens slower than the muscles. Even just for the muscles ~6 weeks is needed to fully stabilize.

In my experience training hundreds of people it’s just not necessary.

It’s also more dangerous to do lots and lots of reps of a bodyweight circuit vs using loaded exercises. Chronic injuries such as tendinitis develop by overuse.

Do 200 push-ups every other day and you have a far greater chance of developing some tendinitis or slight impingement in the shoulder vs doing 3 sets of 5-10 loaded Bench every other day.

Alan

In my experience teaching for 35 years, admittedly HS not adults, some things are not worth the risk. Many of the industry's big shots have also moved away from back squats for non strength athletes. Yes overuse from too many reps is dangerous and typical of runners who tend to believe in volume.

This is assuming we are talking about someone who is at least high school age. Middle school age and younger then just bodyweight, but can start using weights on a case by case basis.

Alan

I don't know Alan, if Mike Boyle, Joe Kenn and others limit back squats we should also be hesitant to program it for our typical "athlete."

Then we can agree to disagree. There are 1000x more strength coaches in all sports from HS to the pros programming squats.

Like I said, use the front squat instead. The front squat is easier to learn, and reduces the risk because once your body assumes an unsafe position you end up dropping the bar. You can still back squat in an unsafe position and complete the lift. It’s much harder to do in the front squat because of the bar placement. Same with the trap bar Deadlift, it’s almost impossible to round your lumbar on a trap bar Deadlift vs conventional.

Alan

Goblet squats, front squats, trap bars, yes use them. Stay away from back squats unless you have a strong torso, are being spotted correctly and have been instructed properly. The average runner who throws a bar on his back because he read that it is a good exercise is setting himself up for injuries.

coach wrote:

Goblet squats, front squats, trap bars, yes use them. Stay away from back squats unless you have a strong torso, are being spotted correctly and have been instructed properly. The average runner who throws a bar on his back because he read that it is a good exercise is setting himself up for injuries.

I was an average runner with poor flexibility and no weight lifting experience having some knowledge but no spotter started at 135 x 10. Never had any low back issues with the back squat. With everyone I’ve ever coached or trained or spotted I’ve never had someone complain of back pain with the squat.

You’re right it’s all about technique. It’s all about knowing how to brace and what depth you drop to. 99% of the time it’s not ATG.

Here:

1. Set the bar so it’s approx chest height. Grab the bar just outside your shoulders, how far out depends on your shoulder and wrist flexibility. Get under the bar, feet underneath you, bar even across your traps at shoulder level just below the C7 vertebrae (that knobby bone at the base of your neck). Elbows down, wrists neutral....this is where you adjust your grip width, elbows down but hands pulling the bar apart, chest out.

2. Breath in, unrack the bar and walk out. This shouldn’t take 500 steps to get into position. Practice it. Unrack by standing up. Take one small step back with right foot, another back with left foot, then move left foot out to your desired foot width. Feet should be shoulder width, or possibly slightly wider. I good test for your proper width....to do some jump squats and see how your feet land....this should be close to how your feet should look when doing a loaded squat both in width and foot angle. Your foot angle will be about 10–15% pointed out. Your feet may be pointed out even more IF your foot width is beyond shoulder width. The wider your stance the more pointed out your feet will be. Basically when you squat you want your feet and knees pointing the same direction and your knees over your ankles.

3. Squat!! Take a big breath, hold it but push your breath against a closed glotis or pursed lips will suffice so you let out a little breath as you breath out on the way up. I prefer a closed glottis and holding your breath until I finish the rep as it maintains a tight trunk. Squat down by first pushing your hips back, hinging, then break at the knee and squat down. Push your knees out, get your knees out of the way. From the front there should be a straight line from knee to ankle. The weight of your body should NOT be on your toes but instead should be across the midfoot, to heel.

4. Get out of the hole! This is where things get fun. How far to go? That depends on your mobility. Go down right before you start to lean forward or right before your hips start to rotate forward and “buttwink”. For most this will be right around thighs parallel or an inch or two below parallel. Video yourself squatting. For most, ATG is only done with a severe “butt wink”.

5. Now just stand up. Sounds easy? As you drive up from your hips, squeeze your glutes push your heels into the ground and push your knees OUT. Now once at the top breathe out and begin the next rep.

Biggest issues are going too low and doing the buttwink......leaning forward on way up because either you’re pushing the bar forward or not pushing the hips back and not keeping trunk tight......and knees caving in on the way up, Valgus Knee.

Alan

Maybe this list tells why most runners would be better to not to (back) squat, especially if lifting heavy weights. You can easily rely more on your possible stronger leg, without noticing it, even worse if you've leg length discrepancy. BUT, those who have the strong core/trunk and advisor, or they are willing to put a lot of thinking and learning by themselves (like I've done) to get the technique, rhythm, and even breathing while lifting right, then it's not a problem. The heavier the weights, the better the technique and core strength should be, of course. What I've noticed personally, when I started doing deadlifts my back/trunk/core/whatever soon felt much stronger while squatting, and could easily go lower than before. The back squat is a great exercise if you can handle it.

"With everyone I've ever coached or trained or spotted."

Alan I don't doubt your knowledge, sincerity, ability to present information or coach but many here don't have you or a knowledgeable eye to help them. I send anyone who wants to back squat to an expert becasuse I know I'm not one. I only teach reaching goblet squats and kettle bell front squats.

Most people do not have the requisite mobility, stability and or balance to do many lifts.

Let self coached athletes stick to easier lifts.

TBH I break down the back squat to minute detail and of the basic barbell lifts it is the hardest to learn and the easiest to perform wrong. That’s why I program front squats more often than not to new lifters. It’s easier to teach, easier to execute, easier to get lower. It is however less reliant on the glutes vs back squat. So when programming the front squat I also have the trap bar deadlift. The front squat is also more uncomfortable for most because you have to hold the bar on your front delts and thinner athletes like runners don’t have much meat there so it tends to slide down into that boney junction between the delts and biceps OR you cross arm hold and it’s eaiser to hold but ends up pushing into your neck which can be uncomfortable. You’re also using far less weight with the front squat which is fine and the lower weight keeps some people’s minds at ease.

Another thing, if you’re pushing for a heavy lunge or similar exercise over the back squat you end up trading the possibility of a hurt back with the possibility of a hurt knee AND you end up limiting yourself by your grip strength instead of leg strength.

Alan

coach wrote:

"With everyone I've ever coached or trained or spotted."

Alan I don't doubt your knowledge, sincerity, ability to present information or coach but many here don't have you or a knowledgeable eye to help them. I send anyone who wants to back squat to an expert becasuse I know I'm not one. I only teach reaching goblet squats and kettle bell front squats.

Most people do not have the requisite mobility, stability and or balance to do many lifts.

Let self coached athletes stick to easier lifts.

Ah but I would say a trap bar Deadlift or front squat is easier to learn than a proper lunge....

It’s all good man. No worries.

Alan

PTF wrote:

Done really well with this:

https://www.facebook.com/paul.howell.3597/videos/o.183241708553138/10154740414981761/?type=2&theater

Bump. Has anyone tried the Sling Method? Success stories? Seems to make sense. Thanks.

This is exactly what I do! Super simple, super effective!