Final takeaways of FL and NXN

The history, venue, intros, and other treatment seems slightly better than NXN.

5. It was disappointing to feel a pleading tone during the Footlocker broadcast. The interviews with the podium athletes seemed to be begging for future commitments and praise.

I talked to athletes and coaches who've been to both.

Coaches said treatment of coaches at NXN was better. Athletes said they're both great.

The pleading tone may be because FL is losing influence.

The sad truth for FL is that they passed on the team concept.

Here's the thing (And as a coach you should notice this:

If a great runner has a team with a chance to qualify he/she will go to NXN with the team.

Great individuals will want to race the best- they will go to NXN.

FL is elite and it's been around since 1980 or so, so I get why some people just won't let go.

The beauty of cross-country is that it is individual AND team.

NXN has that, FL failed to grasp that when given the chance to embrace it.

Just watched the videos. A few observations:

-Glendoveer is a decent course, but it just isn't true cross country. Not enough hills, very simple terrain, gentle sloping turns without any rhythm disruption. This is NXN's biggest weakness. They should rotate venues.

- Tuohy is special, truly special. Her greatest strength is her perfect form; ust really well balanced, very fluid. Looks a lot like Rupp's form...except he is a 10 year pro who has had the premier staff in the world work on perfecting this art for 15 years. Tuohy is just a natural.

-Lane has a super engine. Potential marathon star ala Flanagan?

-I'm a FL lifer, and competed many years ago, but I've got to admit, the boys field was not as talent laden this year. Mwuara and Troutner are likely the two most talented that I saw. Hasty close behind but perhaps a little overtrained

Runnerofruns wrote:

Just watched the videos. A few observations:

-Glendoveer is a decent course, but it just isn't true cross country. Not enough hills, very simple terrain, gentle sloping turns without any rhythm disruption. This is NXN's biggest weakness. They should rotate venues.

- Tuohy is special, truly special. Her greatest strength is her perfect form; ust really well balanced, very fluid. Looks a lot like Rupp's form...except he is a 10 year pro who has had the premier staff in the world work on perfecting this art for 15 years. Tuohy is just a natural.

-Lane has a super engine. Potential marathon star ala Flanagan?

-I'm a FL lifer, and competed many years ago, but I've got to admit, the boys field was not as talent laden this year. Mwuara and Troutner are likely the two most talented that I saw. Hasty close behind but perhaps a little overtrained

I agree about Touhy. Her form is powerful. Lane has a great engine, but I can't help but wonder how much faster she can get. Doesn't look like she has a fast top gear. Of course, I've never seen either in a 400, but my eyes tell me Touhy would prevail there.

The pleading tone I mentioned earlier and the comment about FL packing it in after 40 seems like a sign of the end. I hope I'm wrong.

Runnerofruns wrote:

Just watched the videos. A few observations:

-Glendoveer is a decent course, but it just isn't true cross country. Not enough hills, very simple terrain, gentle sloping turns without any rhythm disruption. This is NXN's biggest weakness. They should rotate venues.

- Tuohy is special, truly special. Her greatest strength is her perfect form; ust really well balanced, very fluid. Looks a lot like Rupp's form...except he is a 10 year pro who has had the premier staff in the world work on perfecting this art for 15 years. Tuohy is just a natural.

-Lane has a super engine. Potential marathon star ala Flanagan?

-I'm a FL lifer, and competed many years ago, but I've got to admit, the boys field was not as talent laden this year. Mwuara and Troutner are likely the two most talented that I saw. Hasty close behind but perhaps a little overtrained

Glendoveer is just as 'true' as Balboa. It's beautiful. It doesn't feel as though you're at a golf course. Feels more like a park. Some hills, usually wet and you definitely have a true cross country experience. More so than Balboa.

This isn't meant to take away from FL. I've been to both (and I have an strong attachment to both events), but Glendoveer and NXN feels like real cross country in my opinion.

Runnerofruns wrote:

Just watched the videos. A few observations:

-Glendoveer is a decent course, but it just isn't true cross country. Not enough hills, very simple terrain, gentle sloping turns without any rhythm disruption. This is NXN's biggest weakness. They should rotate venues

I respectfully disagree with you on this one. Glendoveer may look like a flat course on the livestream, but has plenty of short hills that are meant to disrupt rhythm. The last few hills right before the finish are a momentum killer and you will notice many have rough finishes after they reach the top. Along with this the course gets very muddy and running in the mud will disrupt the rhythm of even the best runners. While this year the course wasn’t as muddy, in 2016 the course was a mess as parts of it are run on multiple times. The turns also aren’t gentle, especially at the beginning considering how packed the race starts out. You also noted that it “isn’t true cross country”. NCAA nationals is run on a golf course and in Europe cross country races are known to be muddy (Edinburg). Just watch the 2013 World XC in Poland and you will notice the wet and muddy conditions. Footlocker has no mud and is run on a dirt course, far from the conditions of many XC championships. NXN is as close to big league XC championships as you can get for the high school level. The course isn’t a weakness, and if anything is a strength.

My thoughts... Boys is debatable but probably edging to NXN this year for the first time ever, so hardly a trend, and hardly worth getting worked up over.

Girls, FL definitely had the deeper field of top ten "contenders", Touhy performed better at the very front but Claudia was sick so who knows. From 11th on down NXN probably edged FL but they have volume on there side.

Considering both offer there niches neither is going anywhere, NXN being a great team race and a great individual set up for the grand finale at Footlocker. With both offering great experiences the individual cutoffs are likely to remain similar.

I see it like the 100m vs the 200m and 400m at the Olympics. Occasionally the 200m and 400m winners do "better" than the 100m champ, however, they are still not the 100m champ and worlds fastest man. I see the same here, the Nike champs are great and all that, and may even have a better performance than the FL champ, however, FL is just so dang tough to qualify for and Balboa is iconic and historic, as are the FL regional courses, and former champs which just gives the FL champ a certain mystique that Nike will never have, at least not in my lifetime. I mean this year for Nike the second place girl didn't even have to qualify and got in only party by chance on a wildcard, that's not the gauntlet that FL requires.

And why not let GE XC solve the final debate anyway.....

Those Citing the "history" behind FL are ignoring some epic NXN races, including the best girls race ever between Baxter,Cranny and Efraimson.Tuohys domination this year only adds to the legacy. Also, this is the second year in a row where the best boys performance was at NXN. The tide has turned I'm afraid.

Just watched the videos. A few observations:

-Glendoveer is a decent course, but it just isn't true cross country. Not enough hills, very simple terrain, gentle sloping turns without any rhythm disruption. This is NXN's biggest weakness. They should rotate venues

I think what you can't see is the rhythm disruptions. It has been compared (by NYer's) to the course where the NYSPHSAA Meet was in 2016- not too hilly but you can't get in a rhythm because of the undulating nature of the course.

It's a good blend- not too hilly but not flat.

Footlocker is living on borrowed time. Kids don’t care about tradition, they care about the experience. The racing schedule is too intense and talent is too diluted for both to put out a quality product. Nike Regionals are more accessible for most runners. Hit 40 next year, hope Claudia Lane sets the record with three wins, and then close up shop before it get any worse. Like I’ve said before, Footlocker is basically a vehicle for selling selling Nike shoes, so maybe thy could coordinate and work out some kind of deal.

My only reservation with the format of NXN is the individual race can get swallowed up by team battle and some individuals on good teams might hold back in their individual race to not risk blowing up the team score.

map quest? wrote:

mc wrote:

I agree about the FL broadcast. It was terrific.

Too bad the course was so poorly marked, there were several times in each race where there was a question on which way to go. Come on, 39 years and they haven't figured out how to mark a course?

It wasn't poorly marked. The runners tried to follow the cart when it had to cut off the course. The runners should know the course prior to ever running it.

The reason why NXN is deeper than FL is because it's easier to get into NXN than FL. At NXR you have to be in the top 5 of runners NOT ON A QUALIFYING TEAM. And because the correlation between good team and good athlete is so strong, you could potentially get 19th at NXR and still go to NXN (if the top two teams take the top 14 spots and then you can be the last individual qualifier at 19th, granted this would never happen). At FL Regionals you have to finish in the top 10, no questions asked. Also NXN has twice as many regional meets as FL, spreading out the talent pool and making it easier to qualify. If you're a good runner, sub-16, but not great, not sub-15:30, you try for NXN because there's a greater chance that you make it. And if you do try for FL and scrape by as the #10 qualifier, chances are you won't train your butt off for Nationals, you don't have a shot at All-American so let's just go for the trip (This is my explanation for the 17:3x guy at the back of FL). Where as in NXN, chances are you will get pulled along by a larger, and therefore faster, (Because NXN has a field almost 5 times as large as FL you are naturally going to have a deeper field. That's the same reason why D1 and Class 1A schools have faster track qualifying times than smaller Divisions. If you're drawing from a larger talent pool, chances are you will be able to find faster athletes) field and run a faster time at NXN than you would've at FL. Also if I'm a runner that could qualify for FL but my whole team is good enough to qualify for NXN and potentially be competitive, I will run with my team at NXN. I wouldn't run FL regionals because I want to be as fresh as I can for NXN to help my team as much as possible. I do think that FL should invite the top 5 from NXN to make the field deeper, but the reason why NXN is "better" than FL should not be a surprise, there are plenty of logical reasons why, as I have just laid out.

Nxn is for burnouts wrote:

Jacobs will be a big deal in track next season and a great prospect for ncaa xc

Lane and Jacobs ran away with their races, and the both fields were strong this year.

Lane was especially impressive, as you could tell she had a bad sore throat in the post race interview.

I always love to watch the best runners in the country in San Diego.

mc wrote:

I agree about the FL broadcast. It was terrific.

map quest? wrote:

Too bad the course was so poorly marked, there were several times in each race where there was a question on which way to go. Come on, 39 years and they haven't figured out how to mark a course?

areusure? wrote:

It wasn't poorly marked. The runners tried to follow the cart when it had to cut off the course. The runners should know the course prior to ever running it.

But it was poorly marked, and Lane was directed off course three times in the first half of the race.

It's not a matter of knowing the course. The issue is that the course has so many confusing turns, and the side lines are quite faded. I couldn't even tell where it went when watching the video, and amazed the leaders followed it as well as they did.

The cart was especially annoying, kicking up a wall of dust al the way. They need to get rid of that thing.

The course is the one thing that NX does better, they finally got a good course, and that's the one place where FL can improve. Get a better course with more room, less turns and not so confusing, and get rid of that cart.

vivalarepublica wrote:

Kids don’t care about tradition, they care about the experience.

If the “experience” is the key Footlocker has the advantage, at least with the individual runners. I know of one top individual runner who’s done both now, and they said they will only go back to FL for there senior year despite more travel to the regional. Just said it was “hands down” way better and it wasn’t really even a question.

It appears fewer of 7-8-9-10th graders do Footlocker as age probably helps one see the advantages of Southern Californial over Portland in December.

Nike’s advantage is they offer much easier advancement with more qualifying locations, at-large placements, and team runners displacing top 5 individuals deepening the selections.

The thing with Footlocker is there regional meets are much deeper and way more competitive than any of Nike’s regionals, and really not to far off the Nike national meet. These meets offer kids another opportunity to race at a high level and would be the biggest loss if anything were to happen to them.

As for living on borrowed time, as long as the two meets offer similar packages, (ie free airfare, free shoes, free hotel) the laws of economics suggest both will get there runners and it will ebb and flow between the two and the debate will rage on. If anything I wouldn’t be surprised if a third meet popped up, the value is just way to high compared to the costs. I mean Nike has been willing to outspend FL probably 4 to 1 for years, to only now have a real debate on if the match Footlocker.

Yes, it is slightly easier to get into NXN as an individual, but I think you are overstating the gap. NXN takes 45 total individuals, FL takes 40 (per gender). Yes, some of those top spots in NXN regional meets go to runners on qualifying teams, but have you run the numbers to see how many? Also, with NXN gaining in popularity and with some regional meet conflicts, earning a FL berth can be easier than earning a NXN invite. See NY/NE. CA's top kids generally chose NXN. There were two FL All-Americans, that I know of, from the West that were unable to qualify individually in the NXN SW region.

I imagine both races will continue to be successful at what they do, but I also wouldn't be surprised to see a gradual migration towards NXN, especially now that the Glendoveer course is universally respected by those that been there. Portland Meadows was somewhat of a liability when trying to attract top individual talent, as well as FL tradition.

In reality, I think the shift towards NXN has already happened. It doesn't mean FL might not attract a better field in some years, but my money is on NXN being 'THE' race in 10 years or less. NXN is building it's own tradition now and from coaches I know that have had individual athletes at both, most are in the NXN camp. Add in the accessibility of NXN regional meets and it's just a matter of time. FL regional meets having been declining in participation. NXN regional meets are all increasing.

Well, from a coaches perspective, NXN is light years better. Nike includes coaches in the package, airfare, gear, small clinic, access to it all.

FL excludes coaches and parents from everything but the after race dinner, there is no package for coaches.

The best coaches usually have the best teams, that is not going to change, those coaches will go with NXN everytime, it is a team sport after all. Many times that will include the best runners overall, and as times goes on, most times.

I was unaware that Footlocker had enough employees to troll the boards and push their event, especially the bad mouthing of Nike. They sell the product after all.

NXN includes team coaches in the 'package', but coaches of individuals do not get travel or gear. They get dinners each night plus access to the athlete village, as well as entrance to opening and closing ceremonies. And the clinic you mentioned.

Not a criticism, just a clarification.

And if I remember correctly, tickets (for coaches) to the FL post-race dinner were $50 each.

More takeaways wrote:

[quote]vivalarepublica wrote:

The thing with Footlocker is there regional meets are much deeper and way more competitive than any of Nike’s regionals, and really not to far off the Nike national meet. These meets offer kids another opportunity to race at a high level and would be the biggest loss if anything were to happen to them.

With all due respect, what are you talking about?? Just look at CIF, NXNNY, and Midwest.

In the Midwest, Zach Kreft didn't even qualify for NXN and Clayton Mendez got the last spot (5th). 5th and 6th at a Nike regional and then top 12 at Foot Locker, hmm...

So let's take a look at NXN vs. Foot Locker places to see which meet was really tougher this year.

Kilrea: 5th NXN, 3rd FL

Jacobs: 13th NXN, 1st FL

Bosley: 7th at both

Mendez: 18th at NXN, 9th at FL

Cheeseman: 36th NXN, 6th FL

Hart: 4th NXN, 2nd FL

Schmitt: 8th at both

Wolfgram: 27th NXN, 7th FL

Covert: 70s at NXN (had flu though), 9th at FL

So how can you say that FL regions are not too far off NXN as a whole, when FLN can't even compare to NXN?

4 FL regions, 9 nike ones, not hard to see that FL regions are deeper....